03-11-2004 15:05									#31
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Great city graphics Catfish!

	03-11-2004 16:02									#32
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I...must...have...those...houses!!!

	03-11-2004 20:13									#33
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quote: Originally posted by fairline Harry and Curt - shall we share stuff by e-mail, or do you want to post files here as and when they are finished? BTW, you both know how slow I am so this project will take some time to complete

Both, if it fits the situation...

Posting various stuff here will help keep excitement and interest high -

Really depends if you want to keep the units secret...?

I am happy to 'get my orders' from this thread -
I can make changes to any files I am editing at a glance.

I also can be contacted at my usual email,
but I sometimes do not check it if I am not expecting anything.

If anyone needs to email me about something, tell me here first...!

	03-11-2004 20:22									#34
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Shall we be adding any civ events flags or events masks to the structure?

It would be good to control certain aspects of the game, such as when certain attacks are launched...

	03-11-2004 20:22									#35
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quote: Originally posted by rmsharpe I...must...have...those...roads!!!

And the rivers!

	03-11-2004 21:25									#36
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA Most of the "Too many units" problem during the summer of '41 is caused by the event that spawns 5 infantry and armored units whenever a Wehrmacht is killed. The effect of this event is that, if the Germans lose 50 Wehrmacht, they actually have a net gain of 200 units.

Is that when the wehrmacht is attacked by the russians or is it when a wehrmacht unit is killed in general? Sorry, I have never actually finished a Red Front game. So I am a little unfamilar with some of the events.

quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA As for the unintended T-34/76 to JS-2 upgrade, it can be eliminated by using one of the extra unit slots in TOT for the JS-2 in the rules for summer '44, winter '44-'45 and summer '45.

I was also wondering if any of the extra unit slots would be utilized at all.

	03-11-2004 21:31									#37
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I almost forgot, Catfish, that screenie is freaking amazing.

	03-11-2004 21:37									#38
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Yeah, that terrain looks very nice

	03-11-2004 21:54									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Jimmywax [...]Sorry, I have never actually finished a Red Front game.[...]

I've finished only one oder two RF games - it's really annoying and boring when the German Civ builds lots of 88mm and fortifies them in its cities during the last turns...

	03-11-2004 22:19									#40
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quote: Originally posted by rmsharpe I...must...have...those...roads!!!

You...can..get...them at Techumseh's site by downloading Operation Market-Garden. I think they are Tech's originals; all the rest of the terrain in Catfish's screenie is changed from the original. Looks great BTW Catfish

	03-11-2004 22:34									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Catfish I expect lots of tanks and planes and stuff in return.

That's the plan.

quote: That reminds me, there's something else I forgot about from a few weeks back: Sorry, but it hasn't been touched since you asked me about it. Got to finish off the cities and fix some of the river connections. I'd better head back to the Cave.

Looks great - I'm looking forward to using it with O-MG.

quote: If it's going to be done, then it might as well be done properly. I'm guessing that very few people would know about all of those CivConverter issues. A list of any changes should definitely be in the accompanying documentation. Anyway, if someone wants a straight conversion of RF (with the exception of some of the sounds), it's there. One thing I forgot to mention: you don't need to tamper with any of the sprites in the Original directory. All you need to do is deselect Animated Units in your Graphics Options. Simple. Interference from animated units would be negligible in any event. BTW, in case you decide to change the icons for the units with hidden health bars, I've attached the source BMP files for the static sprites (for use with SpriteGen). Note that all but the required units have been removed to reduce the size of the output files.

Good stuff - I think I'd like to lower the health bars with the rest as well so I foresee a bit of SpriteGen action
On a (sort of) related subject, what do you think about the use of unit flags drawn onto the icons? The upside is they aid civ identification, with the obvious downside of adding to the general clutter when a lot of units are displayed on-screen. They look a bit silly when reversed as well. Views anyone?

quote: I guess that could be the Red Front Redux Deluxe version.

Oh Jesus

	03-11-2004 22:40									#42
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA Apparently so. I did a bit of searching with Web Crawler. Here are some of the "hits" from 2001 to 2003: http://apolyton.net/forums/t84006-s.html http://forums.civfanatics.com/archi...php/t-4008.html http://apolyton.net/forums/t80001-s.html The problem arises almost solely during the fall of '41, and seems to depend on a player's strategy. I believe that preserving units has less to do with it than being aggressive and killing a lot of Wehrmacht units which each spawns 5 replacements. When it happened to me, I was so totally p****d off at not getting the badly needed units which I had built, that I wiped out a bunch of low-grade, backwater German units in Germany and Poland to make room in the units table. My sense of frustration seems to be shared by some of the posters on the above threads. I certainly understand and can't argue with your reluctance to change anything fundamental in the scen. It's just that you and others will be putting major work into upgrading the graphics and converting to TOT while three easily remedied, significant flaws remain in the scen.

Mmm, I see the problem. I think I like the idea of including a mod-pack with the original files with adjustments to the scn file to address this. Care to sign up as Modder-in-Chief Agricola (no pressure )?

	03-11-2004 22:43									#43
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Both, if it fits the situation... Posting various stuff here will help keep excitement and interest high - Really depends if you want to keep the units secret...? I am happy to 'get my orders' from this thread - I can make changes to any files I am editing at a glance. I also can be contacted at my usual email, but I sometimes do not check it if I am not expecting anything. If anyone needs to email me about something, tell me here first...!

OK Curt, we'll post here where upload space allows. The alternative is CDG where I'm sure Pablo would oblige with a sub-forum and larger uploads are allowed.

	03-11-2004 22:50									#44
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I don´t know if you might want to use parts of that Gareth. I edited those basic Nemo cities for some projects on my own. Maybe you can use them?

Attachment: cities ww2 nemo style new.gif
This has been downloaded 217 time(s).

	03-11-2004 23:37									#45
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Does ToT support any other formats other than the 22500 8-bit mono like Civ2 has? I don't suppose the developers put in the extra effort and had it support stereo?

	03-11-2004 23:45									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Jimmywaxx Is that when the wehrmacht is attacked by the russians or is it when a wehrmacht unit is killed in general? Sorry, I have never actually finished a Red Front game. So I am a little unfamilar with some of the events.

It does not seem to matter whether a Wehrmacht is lost when it attacks a Soviet unit or is killed by an attacking Soviet unit. Five new German units are spawned in either case.

quote: Originally posted by fairline Mmm, I see the problem. I think I like the idea of including a mod-pack with the original files with adjustments to the scn file to address this. Care to sign up as Modder-in-Chief Agricola (no pressure )?

Me and my big mouth.
I'd be honored to be associated with this project. I've criticized enough scens to know that it is an almost impossible task to foresee what clever players will figure out in the way of loopholes. Let's see if setting a big rat to stop other rats really works.

Expect a list of other possible mods in a few days so that everyone can critique them.

	04-11-2004 03:11									#47
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Very important note.
I advise You to fix some city placement mistakes that are present in original Red Front.
I do not recall some of them, but the main one, made also but others, is lack of (btw, isn't Breslau-Wroclaw missing too?) of Upper Silesian - Zaglebie conurbation as a city.
It was the biggest industrial centre in the Reich after Ruhra. It definitely should be there.
Part of it (most) belonged to Poland before the war, the rest (Beuthen oslt - Bytom, Hindenburg - Zabrze, Gleiwitz - Gliwice) belonged to Germany.
It was, and still is, a great mining, chemistry, steel production region.

	04-11-2004 06:08									#48
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Well I went out and bought some soundtracks coming home from work. Hopefully I can get some nice environmental music and background battle music from them. And yes, credit will be given of course. Musicians gotta eat...

	04-11-2004 06:40									#49
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quote: Originally posted by fairline OK Curt, we'll post here where upload space allows. The alternative is CDG where I'm sure Pablo would oblige with a sub-forum and larger uploads are allowed.

Sounds like a plan!

	04-11-2004 07:27									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Does ToT support any other formats other than the 22500 8-bit mono like Civ2 has? I don't suppose the developers put in the extra effort and had it support stereo?

Yes, stereo is supported, though I thought MGE did too. Anyway, the other specs are the same. Of course, a stereo wav file is twice as large as a mono one.

Here's the British artillery wav from OM-G:

	04-11-2004 08:07									#51
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Bad finger trouble.

	04-11-2004 12:45									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Very important note. I advise You to fix some city placement mistakes that are present in original Red Front. I do not recall some of them, but the main one, made also but others, is lack of (btw, isn't Breslau-Wroclaw missing too?) of Upper Silesian - Zaglebie conurbation as a city. It was the biggest industrial centre in the Reich after Ruhra. It definitely should be there. Part of it (most) belonged to Poland before the war, the rest (Beuthen oslt - Bytom, Hindenburg - Zabrze, Gleiwitz - Gliwice) belonged to Germany. It was, and still is, a great mining, chemistry, steel production region.

I take your point H. and no doubt it is valid. HOWEVER, I'm opposed to making major changes to a scenario without the original author's permission and posting the results. If we start changing city positions where would we stop? I could suggest a couple of changes to the unit file to produce better historical accuracy for example (Wespe SP gun is available far too early in the War for one). If we take this road, this would no longer be a conversion of RF for ToT but rather a new scenario.

I would apply a simple test to any prospective changes: is the mod designed to alleviate a problem / bug with the original or is it a change based on our 'knowing better' than Nemo about the history or geography of the War on the Eastern Front?

	04-11-2004 12:53									#53
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quote: Originally posted by fairline You...can..get...them at Techumseh's site by downloading Operation Market-Garden. I think they are Tech's originals; all the rest of the terrain in Catfish's screenie is changed from the original.

That's right. The roads are Techumseh's (I just added some noise), the canals are modifications of Techumseh's ones and the flags are Sarsstock's. It's just the graphics set I'm using. Fairline asked me for it a few weeks back and I forgot all about it. This is basically a reminder notice for me to finish up. Back to Red Front…

quote: Originally posted by fairline Good stuff - I think I'd like to lower the health bars with the rest as well so I foresee a bit of SpriteGen action

I'm not a big fan of that because it lowers the superimposed fortified and fortress icons. See this thread. Boco did it in El Aurens. For this you'll need CivSprite.

quote: Originally posted by fairline On a (sort of) related subject, what do you think about the use of unit flags drawn onto the icons? The upside is they aid civ identification, with the obvious downside of adding to the general clutter when a lot of units are displayed on-screen. They look a bit silly when reversed as well. Views anyone?

I don't mind them too much. I stripped them off the air units in Market-Garden; they already have visible markings – good enough for me, but not necessarily others. Not everybody's familiar with WWII units either; that also makes a difference.

quote: Originally posted by fairline Oh Jesus

	04-11-2004 14:58									#54
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quote: Originally posted by fairline On a (sort of) related subject, what do you think about the use of unit flags drawn onto the icons? The upside is they aid civ identification, with the obvious downside of adding to the general clutter when a lot of units are displayed on-screen. They look a bit silly when reversed as well. Views anyone?

I really appreciated them in Market Garden. They are a nice touch and did help me see how miserably I had (mis)managed to scatter the 82nd Airborne. Also, they were a huge help in writing an operational summary for each turn.

quote: Originally posted by Catfish I don't mind them too much. I stripped them off the air units in Market-Garden; they already have visible markings – good enough for me, but not necessarily others. Not everybody's familiar with WWII units either; that also makes a difference.

I found that with only four types of Allied aircraft present, with icons quite distinctive in size, shape and color, there was no need for unit flags.

Market Garden is a bit unusual in that opposing forces can get intermixed and it is helpful to be able to tell where Allied divisions and brigades are operating. Red Front is more of a "linear" situation with Soviet units to the east and German units to the west and, excepting Guderian's 2nd Panzergruppe, there is no attempt to identify major units. IMO, the colors in the health bars should be sufficient to differentiate German and Soviet units.

	04-11-2004 16:11									#55
	Inflate your Upload Space

Unit Icons for the Soviets and Germans are quite symmertrical, so I think there wont be too many probs...

	04-11-2004 22:10									#56
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quote: Originally posted by fairline I take your point H. and no doubt it is valid. HOWEVER, I'm opposed to making major changes to a scenario without the original author's permission and posting the results. If we start changing city positions where would we stop? I could suggest a couple of changes to the unit file to produce better historical accuracy for example (Wespe SP gun is available far too early in the War for one). If we take this road, this would no longer be a conversion of RF for ToT but rather a new scenario. I would apply a simple test to any prospective changes: is the mod designed to alleviate a problem / bug with the original or is it a change based on our 'knowing better' than Nemo about the history or geography of the War on the Eastern Front?

If Nemo commited a major mistake, and I treat lack of Breslau and Upper Silesia as cities as a huge mistake, I think it ought to be corrected.

Oh, You don't have to correct ALL mistakes. You don't even have to trouble with Breslau.
Just make the Upper Silesian conurbation and name it by one of its cities... Like MY HOMETOWN, for example
But the claim is serious. lack of USC is a serious historical mistake.

	05-11-2004 00:34									#57
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quote: Originally posted by jim panse I don´t know if you might want to use parts of that Gareth. I edited those basic Nemo cities for some projects on my own. Maybe you can use them?

Please tell me that you got suburbs for these cities Steph. If you don't will you please make them?

	05-11-2004 07:58									#58
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Those city graphics are amazing, Catfish! Reason enough to play this redux thingy!

I'll be lurking these threads and follow about the development

	05-11-2004 13:13									#59
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quote: Originally posted by jim panse I don´t know if you might want to use parts of that Gareth. I edited those basic Nemo cities for some projects on my own. Maybe you can use them?

Remember you can add tons more colours to them, since we are in bitmap territory!

	05-11-2004 13:19									#60
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This might be a good time to show a He-111 that I tweaked for another project...