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Drachasor
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Sprayber, I have mentioned Kerry's faults twice now in this thread already. Do you need glasses or something?
Here's a third time:
Kerry did have a flawed campaign, though he is not a flawed candidate. He should have made a stronger issue of how Bush has lied, gotten the media to start talking about it, called out Karl Rove on what he has done and how Bush trusts him, and done numerous other things. Admittedly, it is hard to be honest when the media doesn't say how honest people are being, it just does "he said, she said" reporting. Still, Kerry could have done better.*
-Drachasor
*Kerry wasn't horribly inconsistent however; that impression if the result of negative aids and the invariable voting record one gets by working in the Sentate--the latter is why so few Senaters manage to become President.
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar
Drach:
First of all, as you're willing to admit, those tactics were likely not planned by Rove. I think that an 8-year-old could make flyers telling people to vote on November 3rd. I also doubt that any serious damage was intended, or done by those flyers. If you saw a flyer like that posted somewhere, would you think it was a brilliang Rovian scheme, or would you think that it was a joke? And also, just how ****ing dumb do you think Black people are? Are they not smart enough to know when election day is? |
I am sure Rove had tactics that were equally vile that he implemented. I just don't have the resources and knolwedge to track down which ones are his and which ones belong to other people.
The flyers were put on people's doors. The idea wouldn't be to convince everyone, but you might convince a few. There are gullible people in any population.
The flyer tactic though, as admittedly weak for Rove. That phone message is on his level more in effectiveness (Rove's flyer attacks are typically more effective).
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
So it was the people around him? Not Kerry? |
Kerry is responsible for his campaign manager.
As hard as it is to admit, he should have started off with the harsher and less honest tactics he ended up using. Those tactics work best in the current environment. It is his fault for not reading the system and the people as well as he should of, and not getting the best manager.
His campaign was pretty weak, considering everything there was to throw at Bush.*
-Drachasor
*And I am not talking about Moore-ian crap.
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Dp you think that this is the first and only time people may have made decisions that you disagree with?
Should they be disinfranchised?
What are you on about? |
This isn't about a decision I disagree with. It is about making a decision they don't understand properly because they don't know the facts; they know and believe lies. That is objectively true.
This sort of thing damages the very validity of the election, imho.
As such, I don't think it is vile of Kerry to push every flaw in our antiquated Electoral System that he can to try to achieve victory. It serves a dual-use by also pointing out how our system is flawed.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
The US didn't owe Kerry anything. It was up to HIM to persuade enough of the American people that he would make a better president. That should have been fairly easy considering all the people that hate bush. poor showing in iraq. anything but a good economy.
With all things being considered it should have been really easy to defeat Bush. You seem to put most of the blame on the people. I'm more inclined to see it as a poor messenger. I suppose we will see who the Democratic party blames. |
That's a nice little rant, but I never said the US owed Kerry anything.
I also said Kerry was responsible for the poor campaign, in the very text you quoted. Please reread it again.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
No. What's objectively true is that you can't accept that others might disagree with you and have valid reasons for doing so.
If your system is so flawed, and the results just can't be trusted, what's to stop the Army from saying that they are preserving the Republic by overturning any given election that the Cheif of Staff thinks went the wrong way?
Do you see where this leads?
Count the votes and accept it. Don't be a *****. |
That's a nice little Stawman, but I pointed out facts that Bush Supporters have been shown to not believe.
Fact: Iraq had no WMDs when it was invaded.
Fact: Multiple intelligence angencies confirmed the above after the invasion; no intelligence agency thinks there are WMDs in Iraq.
Fact: Iraq had no substantial connection to Al Qaeda
Fact: The 9/11 Comission confirmed the above item.
Most Bush supporters think the opposite of the 1st and 3rd fact, and think they are confirmed too.
All I said was that this sort of delusion damages an honest democratic system. This is a bit unrelated to the below, since fixing the electoral college won't fix this. (I failed to properly indicate this distinction before).
In any case, we are not a terribly good democratic system and do need reform. Kerry can do that, and he should demonstrate the errors of the current system whilst doing so. This means aggressively persuing electoral votes as much as possible (but he probably won't get the votes he needs anyhow, and so ends his attempt). If he does happen to get the votes he needs to win Ohio, for instance, then the flaw in the electoral college will be clearly seen and hopefully addressed in the near future (changed to a direct popular vote, hopefully).
I am not proposing going against any current law; just using the current system to demonstrate its flaws. However, as I said, it probably won't work as he probably can't get the votes he needs in Ohio no matter what.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
OH and your little tirade against the evilness of Rove was what?? Your only complaint against Kerry is that he mismanaged a little. But the evil Republicans conspired and the ignorant Americans are too dumb to see the real issues. |
It is pretty easy to find legitimate news items on what Rove has done throughout his career; you should try it.
If you don't want to try it I'll get you something in about 12 hours. I really need to get to bed soon and I don't want to deal with the internet search at the moment.
-Drachasor
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03-11-2004 14:48
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