03-11-2004 19:37									#241
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Wasn't this Al Gore's record in 2000

No, Ronald Reagan's from 1984.


Now, by the way, name the last Democrat prseidential candidate who got a majority of the popular vote.

	03-11-2004 19:37									#242
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The partisans at http://www.democraticunderground.com/ are going insane.

Damn, my school's firewall is blocking the site.

	03-11-2004 19:40									#243
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui All these people saying Kerry should concede... when not even FOX NEWS is calling the election for Bush, why should Kerry concede? When Nixon conceded, the results announced for Kennedy, so it isn't analogous.

The reason the networks don't want to call it is because they remember last year

If the information being provided is accurate, almost 93% of the outstanding ballots in Ohio have to be for Kerry for him to carry the state... Not likely

	03-11-2004 19:40									#244
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Personally, I'm a little disappointed but not at all surprised. You'd think this should jolt the Democrats back into some sense of reality. They put up a bad candidate and ran a crap campaign. IMO, this election should have been a slam dunk against Bush. The fact that the Democrats weren't up by 10 points going into yesterday speaks volumes about the failure of the party and Kerry himself.

	03-11-2004 19:40									#245
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quote: EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results. In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error. So we have MATCHING RESULTS for exit polls vs. voting with audits vs. A 5% unexplained advantage for Bush without audits.

So whats up with these eVoting machines? Can anyone confirm the claims (+5% for bush, if no paper trail, no diffrence if there is)? Or is it indeed some insane conspiracy theory?

	03-11-2004 19:41									#246
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Fox news have called 269 electoral votes for Bush which is the number he would require to win (since it would then go to the house).

Bush is ahead in the popular vote by 3.5M votes do you not think that lead will translate into electoral votes? Bush squeaked by in 2000 without winning the popular vote but the difference was 500K-1M votes.

Its interesting to note that it wasnt even close in Florida this time. I guess without the ****ing media intereference (i.e. the early call for Gore) that the panhandle voters, who are overwhelmingly republican, actually had their votes recognized this time.

	03-11-2004 19:41									#247
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1. No one has gone straight to the white house from the Senate since John F. Kennedy.
2. No democrat who is not a Southerner has won the White House since John F. Kennedy.
3. Its long been claimed that running to the center suppresses the base vote, and that the Dems could increase base turnout by presenting a clearer choice. That is true, but results in a higher turnout on the part of the GOP base as well.
4. Despite 3, many Democrats will suggest that Kerry did not present a clear enough choice, and that Dean would have done better.

	03-11-2004 19:46									#248
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My commiserations - you poor slobs!

Here's to Ignorance, stupidity, religious extremism and just plain greed...:beer:

	03-11-2004 19:47									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui All these people saying Kerry should concede... when not even FOX NEWS is calling the election for Bush, why should Kerry concede? When Nixon conceded, the results announced for Kennedy, so it isn't analogous.

I think Kerry should concede.

Dirty tricks or not, fraud or not, there's a snowball's chance in hell that they'll get Ohio to come out as they want, especially with Republicans throwing up every legal roadblock they can muster.

With the popular vote numbers looking as they are, I wouldn't want Kerry to "win." He'd be in far worse shape to lead the country than Bush was in 2000, since he would have lost the vote by a clear majority, and he would also face a presumably very hostile Congress intent on questioning his legitimacy at every turn.

His presidency would be hamstrung from the get-go, so I say let Bush keep his messes for the next four years. I don't think Iraq will play out any better for them, and by the end of it people truly will be fed up with him. And it also could lead to a GOP civil war as moderates desperately try to stave off a tide of neocon and right-wing assaults on our country.

	03-11-2004 19:51									#250
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY So whats up with these eVoting machines? Can anyone confirm the claims (+5% for bush, if no paper trail, no diffrence if there is)? Or is it indeed some insane conspiracy theory?

Interesting. This goes along with the rest of the "coincidences" I posted in another thread.
These machines look highly suspicious to me, especially since they seem to be coming from private companies w/o any control exerted over them.
It's like you take a private company and let them count the voting cards....

	03-11-2004 19:52									#251
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Chris Matthews made some interesting comments on NBC this morning (I was flipping by). He said (paraphrasing) that the dems have lost contact with the values that most americans hold to, that there is a schism between the people who fly from LA to NY and those they fly over, and that without a dem who can appeal to the southern voters that they'll never win.

	03-11-2004 19:53									#252
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quote: One thing that does seem very clear tonight -- at least if what I'm hearing from the exits is true -- is that the much-ballyhooed youth vote simply did not show up. Simple as that. That is a remarkable turnabout from the expectations that had been growing over the last week. And Democrats weren't the only ones who bought into the idea. Public pollsters and even Republicans in the final days of the campaign were coming to believe it too. And that shaped expectations greatly. Whatever happens tonight a lot of thought and study will go into just what happened. Was it a mirage? Was it a problem with the GOTV operation? It can't simply be the later. Even the best ground operation can only amplify a demographic trend or spike that has some deeper socio-political basis. -- Josh Marshall

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/ar...0_31.php#003925

	03-11-2004 19:54									#253
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Chris Matthews made some interesting comments on NBC this morning (I was flipping by). He said (paraphrasing) that the dems have lost contact with the values that most americans hold to, that there is a schism between the people who fly from LA to NY and those they fly over, and that without a dem who can appeal to the southern voters that they'll never win.

I've been saying that for years, this total victory by the Republicans should hammer that home but I doubt it.

	03-11-2004 19:55									#254
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the simple fact is that kerry is a lil b*tch, and always has been. The chances of him admitting a fair defeat are slim to none, even though he lost the popular vote by 3.5 million.

	03-11-2004 19:56									#255
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quote: With the popular vote numbers looking as they are, I wouldn't want Kerry to "win." He'd be in far worse shape to lead the country than Bush was in 2000, since he would have lost the vote by a clear majority, and he would also face a presumably very hostile Congress intent on questioning his legitimacy at every turn.

Nonsense! In 4 months nobody cares about that anymore. The same way nobody cared for Bush questionable victory.
President is president and he would not be any weaker.
Or has Bush been, because of that, in his descisions?

	03-11-2004 19:56									#256
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Wouldn't it be awesome if the Dems disintegrated after this debacle? Maybe we can bring back the Whigs!

	03-11-2004 19:57									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak the simple fact is that kerry is a lil b*tch, and always has been. The chances of him admitting a fair defeat are slim to none, even though he lost the popular vote by 3.5 million.

I doubt if Bush were in the opposite situation, he would be doing otherwise. One can say that any candidate owes it to their constituents to ensure the result is 100% right before making any moves.

I still think he's doomed to lose, but I can at least understand why he's taking it slow. I think he's aware of it, too.

	03-11-2004 19:59									#258
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One bright spot for me is that Daschle is out. That ****er deserved to be turned out of his leadership position after 2002. Hell, he deserved it after scraping and kneeling to the Bush Administration in 2001.

Now they need to ditch Terry McAuliffe, the oily little car salesman.

	03-11-2004 20:00									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Wouldn't it be awesome if the Dems disintegrated after this debacle? Maybe we can bring back the Whigs!

Ain't gonna happen, their core and leadership are the most Liberal of the lot (liberal being an adjective derived from the root word "lobotomy") and they're just gonna scream about how the Republicans and the Media used a vast conspiracy to scam the election for Bush.

	03-11-2004 20:01									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Now they need to ditch Terry McAuliffe, the oily little car salesman.

That would mean dumping the Clintons, his backers.

	03-11-2004 20:01									#261
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quote: Ain't gonna happen, their core and leadership are the most Liberal of the lot (liberal being an adjective derived from the root word "lobotomy") and they're just gonna scream about how the Republicans and the Media used a vast cospiracy to scam the election for Bush.

The screaming is why I hope they disintegrate...

	03-11-2004 20:04									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Wouldn't it be awesome if the Dems disintegrated after this debacle? Maybe we can bring back the Whigs!

****ing A Whigs rule

	03-11-2004 20:06									#263
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I figure the best thing would be the Dems keeping their little Liberal niche and the Republicans splitting into the Bull Moose Republican and the Pyscho Nazi Republican Parties.

	03-11-2004 20:06									#264
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I would sooo register as a Whig. I don't even care what their platform is.

	03-11-2004 20:08									#265
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I would register as a Federalist just for kicks and giggles.

Woo Hoo! The party of George Washington and Alexander Hamilton!

Economists unite!

	03-11-2004 20:17									#266
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The partisans at http://www.democraticunderground.com/ are going insane.

That place looks like it is nothing more then the spam forum for a bunch of 15 year olds. Tons of spam and very little if any real discusion going on.

	03-11-2004 20:18									#267
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I said they were going insane Oerdin.

	03-11-2004 20:21									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Personally, I'm a little disappointed but not at all surprised. You'd think this should jolt the Democrats back into some sense of reality. They put up a bad candidate and ran a crap campaign. IMO, this election should have been a slam dunk against Bush. The fact that the Democrats weren't up by 10 points going into yesterday speaks volumes about the failure of the party and Kerry himself.

Not quite. This is not merely a defeat by Kerry. This is also the victory of reactionary ideas.

All reactionary referenda have succeeded. The Republicans continue to control the Congress comfortably.

According to the CNN poll, when I saw it last night, the main issue of 21% of the voters were moral issues, and the primary issue of 17% of the people was to have a strong leader. The economy and Iraq scored less, and issues like education and healthcare scored far less.

	03-11-2004 20:21									#269
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY So whats up with these eVoting machines? Can anyone confirm the claims (+5% for bush, if no paper trail, no diffrence if there is)? Or is it indeed some insane conspiracy theory?

I'm a Democrat and a big Kerry supporter but this junk is just an insane conspiracy theory. The big problem here is that some people need to take a class on satistics and learn why an exit poll isn't really all that accurate. The real vote was 5% off of the estimate and I have no idea why this surprises anyone.

	03-11-2004 20:23									#270
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quote: Not quite. This is not merely a defeat by Kerry. This is also the victory of reactionary ideas.

Huh? Kerry was the reactionary in this election...