05-11-2004 00:20									#91
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Very poor analogy Spiffor.

Very good analogy.

Arafat is widely hated by a part of the world, and is widely respected by another part of the world (the last part of the world doesn't care).
Arafat is the incarnation of the Palestinian resistance to the Israeli occupation. If it wasn't for the activism, the Palestinian issue may have never been acknowledged by various countries.

For this, there are a great many people who love him, who have utmost respect for him. For his methods, however, there are many people who hate him.

When Reagan died, many people danced on his grave. The bastard was dead! The bastard was dead! I personally hate Reagan, and his death didn't bother me one bit. Just like I hate Arafat, and he death doesn't / won't bother me one bit.

However, you have to admit people have very good reasons to love and to hate either Reagan or Arafat. And if you criticize the ones who danced on Reagan's grave, I find it only normal you don't dance or Arafat's grave.

This, or you acknowledge that it is normal to dance on hated people's grave. I personally acknowledge it. And the only reason why I didn't show my satisfaction at Reagan's death, was not to hurt the feelings of the many Reagan-loving Americans here. If there were many Palestinians here, I would show exactly the same respect; and I wouldn't say how glad I am that the bastard is dead.

	05-11-2004 00:22									#92
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Again, I believe that it is the possibilities that his death brings that is making most people dance, not his death itself.

Well then I agree with you, but there are more...tactful ways of stating that.

	05-11-2004 00:22									#93
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I don't think you can compare Reagan and Arafat as people or as leaders, but you can definitely compare the heartless callousness required to dance on someone's grave.

I personally think it is normal to dance of a hated person's grave. Death is considered as a punishment. And it's the only poetic justice you can get for the crimes of many bastards.

	05-11-2004 00:25									#94
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Arafat was responsible for numerous acts of terrorism from his ascent in the late '60s onwards, including the Munich massacre. In 1971 he helped push the arab wordl to the "three nos" no recognition, no negotiations, no peace, helping to head off a compromise at a time when Israel had few settlements in the territories. In 1970 he attempted to overthrow the king of Jordan in a bloody revolt. In the mid -70s he created a state within a state in southern Lebanon, undermining the Lebanese state and helping to bring on civil war. He supported hijackings and other acts of terror. In the early 80's his Fatah launched artillery attacks from Lebanon onto Israeli towns and kibbutzim along the northern border, provoking the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

Having made peace at Oslo, he went on to undermine that peace using incitement and funding for terrorists. He then went on to reject a peace proposal, and ignite a bloody war.

Anyone who wishes to dance on his grave is neither heartless nor callous, but in fact the opposite.

	05-11-2004 00:26									#95
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Well then we disagree. I wish death on no one, and do not rejoice at the death of anyone. I see something base and inhuman (or perhaps too human.... ) about thirsting for death.

	05-11-2004 00:29									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Very good analogy. Arafat is widely hated by a part of the world, and is widely respected by another part of the world (the last part of the world doesn't care). Arafat is the incarnation of the Palestinian resistance to the Israeli occupation. If it wasn't for the activism, the Palestinian issue may have never been acknowledged by various countries. For this, there are a great many people who love him, who have utmost respect for him. For his methods, however, there are many people who hate him. When Reagan died, many people danced on his grave. The bastard was dead! The bastard was dead! I personally hate Reagan, and his death didn't bother me one bit. Just like I hate Arafat, and he death doesn't / won't bother me one bit. However, you have to admit people have very good reasons to love and to hate either Reagan or Arafat. And if you criticize the ones who danced on Reagan's grave, I find it only normal you don't dance or Arafat's grave. This, or you acknowledge that it is normal to dance on hated people's grave. I personally acknowledge it. And the only reason why I didn't show my satisfaction at Reagan's death, was not to hurt the feelings of the many Reagan-loving Americans here. If there were many Palestinians here, I would show exactly the same respect; and I wouldn't say how glad I am that the bastard is dead.

Next post "reagan wasnt a terrorist"
Spiffor reply "something about bombing qaddafi, or about nuclear strategy"
Next" long discussion of reagan nuclear strategy, sequeing (hows that for a franco-english word!) into a general discussion nuclear strategy.
Excellent threadjack attempt.

It wont work. I intend to dance on Arafats grave, and no side discussion of Reagan will dissuade me.

	05-11-2004 00:30									#97
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Well then we disagree. I wish death on no one, and do not rejoice at the death of anyone. I see something base and inhuman (or perhaps too human.... ) about thirsting for death.

I dont thirst for it. But its an inevitable part of life. In many cases it grieves me, despite being inevitable. In other cases it leaves me cold. And in other cases, despite being inevitable, it leaves me pleased.

	05-11-2004 00:32									#98
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Well then we disagree. I wish death on no one, and do not rejoice at the death of anyone. I see something base and inhuman (or perhaps too human.... ) about thirsting for death.

Look at me! I'm evil!

	05-11-2004 00:35									#99
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Next post "reagan wasnt a terrorist" Spiffor reply "something about bombing qaddafi, or about nuclear strategy" Next" long discussion of reagan nuclear strategy, sequeing (hows that for a franco-english word!) into a general discussion nuclear strategy. Excellent threadjack attempt.

Not even that. I mentioned Reagan only because I witnessed how touchy people here were on the issue.

Go ahead and dance on Arafat's grave. The bastard deserves it, by and large I certainly don't intend to convince any of you not to celebrate a death, especially as I consider it deserves celebration.

I just wanted to pinpoint to some people, that if they allow themselves to dance on somebody's grave, then they shouldn't complain when somebody else dances on a person's grave, even though it's a 'respectable' person.

	05-11-2004 00:36									#100
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Arafat was responsible for numerous acts of terrorism from his ascent in the late '60s onwards, including the Munich massacre. In 1971 he helped push the arab wordl to the "three nos" no recognition, no negotiations, no peace, helping to head off a compromise at a time when Israel had few settlements in the territories. In 1970 he attempted to overthrow the king of Jordan in a bloody revolt. In the mid -70s he created a state within a state in southern Lebanon, undermining the Lebanese state and helping to bring on civil war. He supported hijackings and other acts of terror. In the early 80's his Fatah launched artillery attacks from Lebanon onto Israeli towns and kibbutzim along the northern border, provoking the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Having made peace at Oslo, he went on to undermine that peace using incitement and funding for terrorists. He then went on to reject a peace proposal, and ignite a bloody war.

Exellent eulogy

	05-11-2004 00:38									#101
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I agree with you Spiffor so I´m going to dance in Reagan´s grave!

Look I´m evil too!

	05-11-2004 00:39									#102
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I'm dancing to Arafat's death... if it's true.

	05-11-2004 00:42									#103
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I wont regret his death (but he's not dead yet!) and I won't celebrate it either. But let's hope that a new Palestinian leader with a clean slate will emerge and a constructive dialogue with Israel will begin.

	05-11-2004 00:43									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I personally think it is normal to dance of a hated person's grave. Death is considered as a punishment. And it's the only poetic justice you can get for the crimes of many bastards.

We all die. Where is justice?

	05-11-2004 00:49									#105
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Arafat is/was expected to live for another 20 years, and gave no indication of changing his ways. Because of that, this is a cause for celebration.

Reagan was well beyond doing anything, to the good or the bad, harmless as a child.

	05-11-2004 01:00									#106
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The justice comes when your still alive and the people you don't like aren't.

	05-11-2004 01:01									#107
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Un topped for now...

	05-11-2004 01:02									#108
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Israeli Media : Clinical death, irreversible.

	05-11-2004 01:04									#109
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I'm one of those who don't take particular joy of another persons death, even if that person is a bastard. I'm more like 'Well, it's settled now.'.. and that's the way I feel about this. If he lives few years longer, I won't be disappointed, if he dies soon, I won't be disappointed.

	05-11-2004 01:07									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie I wont regret his death (but he's not dead yet!) and I won't celebrate it either. But let's hope that a new Palestinian leader with a clean slate will emerge and a constructive dialogue with Israel will begin.

top 5 possibilities now, are Abu Mazen (Abbas), Abu Alaa (Qureia), Bargouti, Dahlan, and Rajoub. First two are "tunisians" fellow exiles, like Arafat, others emerged as local players in West Bank/Gaza. Dahlan probably considered most "moderate" followed by Abbas. Bargouti probably most hardline.

But even if its Bargouti, the pressure on Sharon to reach out will be intense. Yossi Sarid, of dovish Yachad party, has already called for a renewal of negotiations on the death of Arafat, and as has been mentioned :he aint dead yet" (the difference in POV between the global left "how dare people take joy at Arafats death" and the Israeli left "oh goodie, now we can press Sharon to negotiate" is striking, as always)

If its anyone more moderate than Bargouti, the pressure will be that much more intense.

The worst case from the POV of negotiations would be prolonged violence among the Pals, which would give Sharon an excuse for deferring negotiations.

	05-11-2004 01:07									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The justice comes when your still alive and the people you don't like aren't.

You're mean.

	05-11-2004 01:11									#112
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Who's behind Arafat's death? Is it Bush's fault, or do those French try to improve the relations to the US?

	05-11-2004 01:16									#113
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well we'll really see now if Arafat was an obstacle to peace. I dont see any changes from this. Life goes on... on in the case of the middle east - death goes on.

	05-11-2004 01:27									#114
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk We all die. Where is justice?

Death is considered by most as a punishment. This is why people are sad when a loved one dies. This is why people are happy when a hated one dies.

This "punishment" is the only one many bastards will get for their crimes. Like Arafat. Like Pinochet. Like Pol Pot. Hence, for those who hate these bastards, death is the only thing open to celebration.

I'd much better celebrate Pinochet's constant torture in the hands of Chilean militias, rather than his death (the punishment seems much more fitting)

	05-11-2004 02:17									#115
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I don't view death as punishment. Simply another part of life. Arafat is just moving on to the next stage of his existence, wherever that may be.

I agree with Pekka.

	05-11-2004 05:52									#116
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The French poisoned him! Death to the French!

	05-11-2004 06:06									#117
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Well then we disagree. I wish death on no one, and do not rejoice at the death of anyone. I see something base and inhuman (or perhaps too human.... ) about thirsting for death.

If only he felt that way.

	05-11-2004 07:24									#118
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quote: Originally posted by pchang The French poisoned him! Death to the French!

Just a few hours ago, one of your fellow Murricans wanted to bomb us because we were aiding him

	05-11-2004 07:54									#119
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I was just trying to illustrate the Arab point of view. They tend to believe in conspiracy theories.

	05-11-2004 08:10									#120
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New rumor is that he is dead, they are delaying announcement so they can "get a handle" on the situation.