05-11-2004 07:20									#1
	Liberals need to stop sneering at people Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

One lesson coming out of both the US and Australian elections for me is liberals need to stop sneering and talking down to ordinary people. Nobody is going to vote for you if you constantly lecture them and act like you know better.

A good example is the Bush is stupid rhetoric.

a. He isn't stupid and

b. this implies those who voted for him are stupid too.

Hardly a clever way to win over a voter!

All this sniffing at the popular vote for Bush is really counterproductive. Social Democratic parties need to stop being captured by interest groups with their trendy middle class causes and get back in touch with the grass roots.

Some elitist left wing social commentators should take Bill O'Reilly's advice and just shut up. It would be good for the parties they are trying to support and currently just shooting in the foot by alienating readers.

This basic political craft is something conservative parties have been very good at recently. A few years ago they were ones looking down at the masses with disdain and they suffered electorally as a result.

The conservative parties around the world are just killing their opponents in basic tactics on the stump.

One former Australian Labor MP (Democrat to you Yanks) commented after Labor's electoral rout last month that when he joined the parliament he noticed when he shook hands that a lot of the MP's were missing fingers - initially he thought it was a code - but really it was because they were former working men who lost fingers in industrial accidents. Now, the Labor MP's are all former party operatives and officials - not a worker among them. Is it any wonder that 30% of unionised workers voted for the conservatives?

There's a message there somewhere.

Just my 2 cents.

	05-11-2004 07:22									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I disagree. Bush is stupid.

	05-11-2004 07:22									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Communists in particular seem to have a bad habit of constantly insulting the intelligence of the average citizen.

	05-11-2004 07:22									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I completely agree. Bar none.

	05-11-2004 07:23									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Dissident I disagree. Bush is stupid.

Even if he was, it's dumb politics - he's been re-elected so who is stupid now?

	05-11-2004 07:24									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: I disagree. Bush is stupid

I'm a republican, and I think Bush is stupid, and I voted for Bush.

Because Kerry is even stupiderer...

	05-11-2004 07:25									#7
	Remove this text

let's go over a few tips for liberals.

This is why you lost the election.

Crap like:

Bush is hitler.

Driving SUV's supports terrorists.

The U.S. must answer to the rest of the world.

Hollywood actors and other musicians around the country acting like they know more than average americans

hypocritical liberals driving big suv's and living in mansions when they expect other people (especially rich people) to give these things up

Not all of these were said by Kerry. But it doesn't matter. They were said by liberals and Kerry is a liberal. This is why Kerry lost the election.

	05-11-2004 07:25									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Let them complain if they like, they are entitled to a period of mourning/raging.

	05-11-2004 07:25									#9
	Re: Liberals need to stop sneering at people Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse One lesson coming out of both the US and Australian elections for me is liberals need to stop sneering and talking down to ordinary people. Nobody is going to vote for you if you constantly lecture them and act like you know better. A good example is the Bush is stupid rhetoric. a. He isn't stupid and b. this implies those who voted for him are stupid too. Hardly a clever way to win over a voter! All this sniffing at the popular vote for Bush is really counterproductive. Social Democratic parties need to stop being captured by interest groups with their trendy middle class causes and get back in touch with the grass roots. Some elitist left wing social commentators should take Bill O'Reilly's advice and just shut up. It would be good for the parties they are trying to support and currently just shooting in the foot by alienating readers. This basic political craft is something conservative parties have been very good at recently. A few years ago they were ones looking down at the masses with disdain and they suffered electorally as a result. The conservative parties around the world are just killing their opponents in basic tactics on the stump. One former Australian Labor MP (Democrat to you Yanks) commented after Labor's electoral rout last month that when he joined the parliament he noticed when he shook hands that a lot of the MP's were missing fingers - initially he thought it was a code - but really it was because they were former working men who lost fingers in industrial accidents. Now, the Labor MP's are all former party operatives and officials - not a worker among them. Is it any wonder that 30% of unionised workers voted for the conservatives? There's a message there somewhere. Just my 2 cents.

Left-wing thought is a lot more complicated than right-wing thought. *ducks*

	05-11-2004 07:25									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

One could argue that if is it worth, lowering to their standard so they will vote for you.

Lowest common denominator
education

You do have a point though.

	05-11-2004 07:26									#11
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Even if he was, it's dumb politics - he's been re-elected so who is stupid now?

The stupid people who voted for him?

It's why republicans destroy the education system. A dumb, uneducated population makes it easier for them to get reelected.

There's a remarkable and unmistakable trend -- the states with the higher ranked education systems did not vote for Bush.

	05-11-2004 07:28									#12
	Support Apolyton

"See B"

	05-11-2004 07:29									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Asher The stupid people who voted for him? It's why republicans destroy the education system. A dumb, uneducated population makes it easier for them to get reelected. There's a remarkable and unmistakable trend -- the states with the higher ranked education systems did not vote for Bush.

Go back to your Gates shrine.

	05-11-2004 07:29									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The subtle contradictions didn't help

Socialize health care -but- promote stem cell research

Support troops -but- not the war

Support gays -but- not gay marriage

Support the poor - but- not the rich

for tax cuts -but- for increase spending

fo it -but- then agains it





I can see how some of these may make sense to some of you, but not to stupid general Americans like myself.

	05-11-2004 07:29									#15
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dissident let's go over a few tips for liberals. This is why you lost the election. Crap like: Bush is hitler. Driving SUV's supports terrorists. The U.S. must answer to the rest of the world. Hollywood actors and other musicians around the country acting like they know more than average americans hypocritical liberals driving big suv's and living in mansions when they expect other people (especially rich people) to give these things up Not all of these were said by Kerry. But it doesn't matter. They were said by liberals and Kerry is a liberal. This is why Kerry lost the election.

As opposed too:

Driving small cars = communist
**** the rest of the world, damn communists
hollywood's a bunch of communists
gay traitors

	05-11-2004 07:31									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yeah... and Dems like to keep the masses in a cycle of endless welfare checks, knowing it will breed more Dems... Uneducated minorities who are beholden to the Dems for their checks to survive... with no attempt from the Dems to actually help these people better themselves... mostly people without any education

	05-11-2004 07:33									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Education
The uneducated
The manipulation of the uneducated by the educated
My manipulation of the uneducated

	05-11-2004 07:33									#18
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Japher The subtle contradictions didn't help Socialize health care -but- promote stem cell research

How the hell is this a contradiction?

quote: Support troops -but- not the war

That's not really a contradiction. Ideally it'd mean he'd provide enough funding for the troops -- something Bush is allegedly not doing -- and putting an end to the war.

quote: Support gays -but- not gay marriage

Bush has the same position.

quote: for tax cuts -but- for increase spending

This is Bush's plan, and what he's done...

	05-11-2004 07:34									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

But yes, I think that it's very very easy to dismiss intellectual liberalism as being "ivory tower" but that never actually says anything. Meantime, stupidity and conservatism remains prevalent, as humanity prepares to toast and drown itself.

	05-11-2004 07:35									#20
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

"See B"

	05-11-2004 07:35									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

As opposed to actual commentators on TV and radio who loudly and often state that 'liberal' is bad, and voting for democrats is a vote for socialism, or un-american.

Yeah, right.

Sorry, horsie, but the real reason is that the North lost the culture war. The U.S. is culturally 'southern' now.

All the dems need to do is put up a moderate dixiecrat next time and they'll win, hands down.

Think about it. When was the last non-southern democratic president?

John F. Kennedy.

Tells you something.

	05-11-2004 07:36									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Japher The subtle contradictions didn't help Socialize health care -but- promote stem cell research

Where's the contradiction?

quote: Support troops -but- not the war

Very much not a contradiction. I can prefer that we not go to war, but still hope our troops stay alive.

quote: Support gays -but- not gay marriage

?

quote: Support the poor - but- not the rich

Why would you support the rich?

quote: for tax cuts -but- for increase spending

Uh, that's Bush, Japher

	05-11-2004 07:38									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It's a lot easier to say that the poor are poor because they dont work hard enough or there is something wrong with them than to explain complex structural factors

It's a lot easier to say that Americans know how to spend their own money than explain that slightly higher taxes benefit everyone - regardless of whether an individual takes advantage of the services those higher taxes provide

It's a lot easier to say that inequality is fine because people are unequal than to explain how gross inequality damages society, the economy and even impacts on those who seemingly do well out of the inequality.


Those on the left (me included) often assume that people who disagree with us simply dont understand these complex issues (and others like them). I am as guilty as any of us in talking down to people who disagree with me. I shouldn't do it...I try to avoid doing it...but sometime it just slips out.

	05-11-2004 07:41									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think it was a major part of Kerry's problem. Bush was busy pandering to dumb rural voters in his pickup truck while Kerry was pandering to the sophisticated windsurfers. But I guarantee you that there are more votes in the pickup truck and the dumb rural voters are actually pretty smart.

	05-11-2004 07:41									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ming Yeah... and Dems like to keep the masses in a cycle of endless welfare checks, knowing it will breed more Dems... Uneducated minorities who are beholden to the Dems for their checks to survive... with no attempt from the Dems to actually help these people better themselves... mostly people without any education

The CNN exit polls were very interesting. You saw a huge correlation between education and vote. It sure wasn't the most spectacular (the most spectacular was the correlation of religiosity and vote), but Bush had a clear advantage among the uneducated.

	05-11-2004 07:41									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

One example in both the US and Australia of trendy issues is gay marriage.

Your average swinging voter family man or woman does not believe that gay couples are the same as heterosexual married couples or families.

Does that mean they are stupid or homophobes? They don't think so.

I saw some research which showed these kind of "moral" issues were higher in voter concerns than IRAQ in many of the "heartland" states that voted for Bush.

Conservatives will keep merrily wedging Social Democratic parties on issues like this, and winning elections, until the latter wise up.

Another example is getting too close to the green left - your average mortgage belt voter thinks a green is the nasty person who stops them putting an extension on their house or driving the kind of car they like.

Its dumb politics for parties that need to win over the middle and get elected to flirt with this stuff....

	05-11-2004 07:42									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Even if he was, it's dumb politics - he's been re-elected so who is stupid now?

Stupidity has nothing to do with survival. If it did, there'd be no stupid people around.

	05-11-2004 07:42									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Your average swinging voter family man or woman does not believe that gay couples are the same as heterosexual married couples or families. Does that mean they are stupid or homophobes?

Yes.

	05-11-2004 07:43									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by DanS I guarantee you that there are more votes in the pickup truck.

lol. Thats why it's sometimes hard to resist talking down to people.

"Well, I was gonna vote for Kerry but, goddamnit, he didn't have no pickup truck"

	05-11-2004 07:43									#30
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Theben John F. Kennedy. Tells you something.

That the best democrat came from the north?