05-11-2004 08:54									#91
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I like to call people stupid. Then when things don't work out the way they think they will I look smart.

	05-11-2004 08:55									#92
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I didn't notice your threads. They must have had a less appealing title

	05-11-2004 08:57									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin AH is right? What about me? I've written two threads on this in the last two days. Have I been howling at the moon?

Your generally a reasonable moderate Dem while AH usually comes off as a loon. For a change he makes sense hence the reason to actually encourage his otherwise unusual behavior.

	05-11-2004 09:10									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin AH is right? What about me? I've written two threads on this in the last two days. Have I been howling at the moon?

Sorry, I don't post here that much anymore. Your thread titles must not have been as eye-catching as this one. Then again, the fact that AH was criticizing liberals might have been what caught my eye.

	05-11-2004 09:10									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yeah... and Dems like to keep the masses in a cycle of endless welfare checks, knowing it will breed more Dems... Uneducated minorities who are beholden to the Dems for their checks to survive... with no attempt from the Dems to actually help these people better themselves... mostly people without any education

Welfare checks are the very smallest portion of the welfare state

It only gets picked on because programs for disenfranchised people are always easy to pick on

The total amount of money spent on welfare programs don't even come close to the gargantuan amount of money spent on social security and unemployment benefits, which are basically handouts in the same spirit of what you are criticising, and the biggest drain of money in the whole welfare system.

But these benefits will never be touched. Why? Because the middle class and older generations have political muscle.

And besides, it was CLINTON who got the welfare reform act signed into law

	05-11-2004 09:14									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker And besides, it was CLINTON who got the welfare reform act signed into law

The Republican Congress pushed that one into the forefront.

	05-11-2004 09:15									#97
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Well, let's face it. Clinton didn't do a damn thing after '94 besides welfare reform. That's an easy way not to alienate people.

	05-11-2004 09:17									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle The Republican Congress pushed that one into the forefront.

Republicans talked about but Clinton most certainly stole that issue from them. The population identified that success with Clinton and not with Congress.

	05-11-2004 09:21									#100
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, let's face it. Clinton didn't do a damn thing after '94 besides welfare reform. That's an easy way not to alienate people.

Sure, that and the whole, "largest economic expansion in the history of the nation," thing.

	05-11-2004 09:22									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Republicans talked about but Clinton most certainly stole that issue from them. The population identified that success with Clinton and not with Congress.

I agree, but I still say it was Congress that made it an issue. Clinton, for all his philandering, did do some good.

	05-11-2004 09:25									#102
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I never said it wasn't wise to first do no harm with regard to the economy. He was just a caretaker president (not altogether a bad thing).

	05-11-2004 09:28									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Sure, that and the whole, "largest economic expansion in the history of the nation," thing.

I would encorage democrats to praise Clinton more and follow his example.

	05-11-2004 09:29									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I would encorage democrats to praise Clinton more and follow his example.

I'd hit it.

Oops wrong example!

I know what you mean though Sprayber

	05-11-2004 09:29									#105
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, let's face it. Clinton didn't do a damn thing after '94 besides welfare reform. That's an easy way not to alienate people.

Clinton did do the very centrist thing called balancing the budget. Admirably the economy had more to do with that then anything but Clinton did become the head budget disciplinarian who refused to raise spending much faster then inflation. That is a MAJOR accomplishment in my book even if W ruined eight years of budget work in six month.

	05-11-2004 09:30									#106
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$200 billion surplus?

	05-11-2004 09:30									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Exactly! By 1996 even a lot of Republicans liked the guy. He wasn't crazy, worked with Congress, and helped to pass bills that satisfied Republicans and Democrats alike. He did what politicians do best, he compromised and actually got a lot of crap done.

They liked him so much they impeached him the seconed they could

	05-11-2004 09:34									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin One of the first things Clinton did when he was nominated in 1992 was purge the party's leadership of the ideologue. He put them in a back room where they could huff and puff to their hearts content but where voters sure weren't going to see then.

And after the '94 debacle, the best this ever did was shrink the conservative mayority in '96 and '98- but never to raign the mayority.

The dems will never win if they let the republicans define the debate- you win before the battle begun: for democrats to think they can win the battle by acting like republicans and running on "republican issues" is absurd. They need to change the debate- to redefine the system to their image- make "values" mean OUR values, urabn cosmopolitan, urbane tolerant values, not rural, small town, conservative absolutist values.

	05-11-2004 09:36									#109
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Yeah, I think we all have agreed on that.

	05-11-2004 09:39									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant How was Kerrys election platform more liberal than Clinton's?

On the 'values' front, I'm not Christian in the least (and not socially conservative) and I would vote for the party that would end late term abortions on demand in a New York minute. To me it is a highly moral issue, because I regard it as very close to, if not actually, murder.

	05-11-2004 09:40									#111
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quote: Another thing the conservatives have got very very good at.

They pay people well for that sort of thing.

To distil positions in such a way as to be immediately understandeable.

	05-11-2004 09:41									#112
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Example:

"See them homos!!! Git 'em!!!"

	05-11-2004 09:41									#113
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And after the '94 debacle, the best this ever did was shrink the conservative mayority in '96 and '98- but never to raign the mayority.

Well, that's sure as hell is better then we did in 2000, 2002, or 2004.

quote: The dems will never win if they let the republicans define the debate- you win before the battle begun: for democrats to think they can win the battle by acting like republicans and running on "republican issues" is absurd. They need to change the debate- to redefine the system to their image- make "values" mean OUR values, urabn cosmopolitan, urbane tolerant values, not rural, small town, conservative absolutist values.

I'll agree we need to define the debate but if we define it in a way that alienates most Americans then we will not win. We win by making the Democratic Party the party that represents the average American.

	05-11-2004 09:41									#114
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NO we haven't: this whole "act like normal people", reach out to the "normal people" is bull.

Bush won with 51% percent- that only 1% more than half the voters. The 48% are all eastern establishment liberals? Right- so, the country is made up of 2 types of people, 51% are "normal" and 48% are "Liberal Elites", well, righty-OH

Talking about "the common people" already is playing into republican hands that some suburban white guy in Colodaro Springs is more "normal" than some black woman in the Bronx. BULL. We need to define the values of America, and its startys by dropping the "normal peiople" ****. They don;t exists. America is made up of a grand variety of different groups- the idea is getting behind a set of values that can bring the larges number of these different sets together in a common cause.

	05-11-2004 09:42									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Example: "See them homos!!! Git 'em!!!"

What was Kerry's position on gay marriage?

	05-11-2004 09:43									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Well, that's sure as hell is better then we did in 2000, 2002, or 2004.

In 2000 we won the popular vote and came within 1 vote in the senate- in fact, wrong, we were tied in the senate with Cheney the deviding vote.

yes, 2002 and 2004 were bad, but don;t include 2000.

	05-11-2004 09:44									#117
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As for fawning over Clinton, recall that he never earned a plurality.

Even the peanut farmer barely topped 50%. Same with Kennedy.

The Dems have some serious structural problems to sort out, since the last solid victory they got was LBJ, and that's 32 years ago now.

	05-11-2004 09:45									#118
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Until the people in the red states drop the idea that liberals want to gay rape them while force feeding them Brie and red wine and making them listen to Phish, the dems will never win.

	05-11-2004 09:45									#119
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ABORTION SHOULD BE...
Mostly Legal (34%)
Mostly Illegal (26%)

Find the middle ground there, and win one of the moral issues.

	05-11-2004 09:46									#120
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quote: "See them homos!!! Git 'em!!!"

Like that argument comparing gay marriage to removing Vets benefits.

That's the kind of thing they pay for.