05-11-2004 08:09									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The "high moral ground" is another example of hopelessly conceited liberal political condescension to voters. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

I don't see the logical link between your two sentences. The "high moral ground" is bad in order to win in a democracy open to demagogery. True.

How is demagogery (=flattering the voters with what they want to hear, instead of saying what you actually think) not condescension to voters? Flase promises and lies are what insults a voter's intelligence the most. It's better to get elected, but it's infinitely more condescending than honesty. Even if honesty means telling them "you are stupid".

	05-11-2004 08:12									#62
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The link is this: you can't do anything if you don't get elected.

	05-11-2004 08:14									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse One lesson coming out of both the US and Australian elections for me is liberals need to stop sneering and talking down to ordinary people. Nobody is going to vote for you if you constantly lecture them and act like you know better.

I personally don't understand the idea that I should demand everyone act the same intellectually, but allow everyone to act individually in all other aspects- if I am sick, I go to a doctor exactly because he knows more than I. I can agree with the notion that one need not be condecending, but on certaint things some people do know better- its crazy to think otherwise. I know **** about fixing a car- if the mecahnic talks to me and I dfon;t get it, whatever- he knows, I don't.

quote: A good example is the Bush is stupid rhetoric. a. He isn't stupid and b. this implies those who voted for him are stupid too. Hardly a clever way to win over a voter!

Yes, Bush being stupid, and I call him that all the time, is fine shorthand. NO, he is not actually stupid, otherwise he would not be where he is. He is thought, intellectually uninterested- he is smart-but I don;t know if I would call him intelligent.

quote: All this sniffing at the popular vote for Bush is really counterproductive. Social Democratic parties need to stop being captured by interest groups with their trendy middle class causes and get back in touch with the grass roots.

"The grass roots" is an interest group.

quote: Some elitist left wing social commentators should take Bill O'Reilly's advice and just shut up. It would be good for the parties they are trying to support and currently just shooting in the foot by alienating readers.

So basically, act stupid because people who know less don't like to be reminded of this- enforce intellectual socialism essentially..great....

quote: This basic political craft is something conservative parties have been very good at recently. A few years ago they were ones looking down at the masses with disdain and they suffered electorally as a result.

Yes, they did get smart, they saw how they could manipulate the poor lower classes by blaming them fancy pants know-it alls, as opposed to them fancy pants robber barrons....the masses must rejoice!

quote: The conservative parties around the world are just killing their opponents in basic tactics on the stump.

Well, except in Latin America and India, and other parts of the world- and in a place like China or Japan the whole notion is moot, and in someplaces like Spain the left has won, but hey, I guess the US and Australia does equal the "whole world"

quote: One former Australian Labor MP (Democrat to you Yanks) commented after Labor's electoral rout last month that when he joined the parliament he noticed when he shook hands that a lot of the MP's were missing fingers - initially he thought it was a code - but really it was because they were former working men who lost fingers in industrial accidents. Now, the Labor MP's are all former party operatives and officials - not a worker among them. Is it any wonder that 30% of unionised workers voted for the conservatives?

You still have unions in Australia? Wow. Oh, aned are you not the guy who says that all American politics are to the right of Australian ones?

quote: There's a message there somewhere.

That cultural class warfare is working- and that the left has to start storming palaces again?

Just my 2 cents. [/QUOTE]

	05-11-2004 08:15									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The link is this: you can't do anything if you don't get elected.

I don't see how not getting elected is condescending to voters.

My beef with the post I quoted is that you believe the "moral high ground" is condescending to voter. We agree that it isn't efficient, but condescending ?

	05-11-2004 08:16									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The link is this: you can't do anything if you don't get elected.

Progressives always spoke down to the peoiple- the question is why the effectiveness of this has changed. Evcen in their triumph two days ago, the republicans have never had the sort of massive mayority the dems had 60 years ago- and its not like FDR was some lower class bloke...

	05-11-2004 08:16									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant But what can the Dems give up without giving up their core beliefs?

Are you seriously claiming that centrist Democrats like Clinton don't represent the party's core beliefs?

	05-11-2004 08:17									#67
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Its condescending to patronise voters with your moral superiority rather than arguing the issues.

	05-11-2004 08:19									#68
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Progressives always spoke down to the peoiple- the question is why the effectiveness of this has changed. Evcen in their triumph two days ago, the republicans have never had the sort of massive mayority the dems had 60 years ago- and its not like FDR was some lower class bloke...

In FDR's time the Democrats owned the South becuase they were closer to the people.

	05-11-2004 08:22									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Its condescending to patronise voters with your moral superiority rather than arguing the issues.

Then we are in a misunderstanding.

I never advocated the patronising of voters through the display of "moral superiority". An ethics shouldn't be made a show of, especially a too 'perfect' one: it just doesn't sell, and something will unvariably look fishy.

What I advocate, however, is to respect the voters by offering them our actual take on the issues, and discussing the issues by saying what we really intend to do. Such honesty is far less patronising than lies, than flattering the voters by telling them the opposite of what you think.

And if the voters disagree with your take on the issues, then so be it. Democracy is about the voters deciding their collective fate. It's not about knowing what label the head-stooge has.

	05-11-2004 08:25									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor What I advocate, however, is to respect the voters by offering them our actual take on the issues, and discussing the issues by saying what we really intend to do. Such honesty is far less patronising than lies, than flattering the voters by telling them the opposite of what you think.

I agree with that.

	05-11-2004 08:27									#71
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Maybe you need to develop a 30 second elevator speech on each issue, Spiffor. You have to have a story to get people interested in what you have to say before they will listen to a complicated position. Because let's face it, most politicians who have complicated positions just use that as an excuse to hold incomprehensible positions.

	05-11-2004 08:28									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Because let's face it, most politicians who have complicated positions just haven't worked on their issues enough to distill the essential elements to voters.

Another thing the conservatives have got very very good at.

	05-11-2004 08:28									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I agree with that.

And IMHO, this is the main reason why the Democrats lost. The American public is largely more reactionary than the Democrats are. The main issues of this election were Moral Issues (21%), the War on Terror (18%) and the need of a strong leader (17%). For those who had these issues primarily in mind, Bush was a very clear winner. And for a reason: Because Democrats are much more liberal than the Republicans. Because the Democrats oppose the idea of a strongman-democracy.

On those issues, the American public agreed largely with the Republican agenda. It's only normal the Republicans get a comfortable victory.

	05-11-2004 08:31									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse In FDR's time the Democrats owned the South becuase they were closer to the people.

No, they were strong in the south because southern democrats were a bunch of racists still smarting over the republican Lincoln ending their control over them negros...they were strong nationwide becasue progressives put together a coolition of the racists, and the negors, and the weorking man by giving them every day improvements in their lives throught progressive ideas.

	05-11-2004 08:32									#75
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And the liberals stick their fingers in their ears and sing loudly so not to hear good advice.


Kind of sad really cause it would be really nice to have an alternative to the radicallization of the republicans.

	05-11-2004 08:33									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Its condescending to patronise voters with your moral superiority rather than arguing the issues.

The people who voted for Bush are the ones who feel themselves moraly superior- if anything, they hate liberals for no making moral judgements of people.

	05-11-2004 08:34									#77
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quote: Another thing the conservatives have got very very good at.

I don't know if you saw any of Bush's stump speeches, but he was very effective. 4 or 5 speeches a day, every campaign day. Hammering home his three or four themes. Kerry, the great orator, was an amateur in comparison.

	05-11-2004 08:34									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Maybe you need to develop a 30 second elevator speech on each issue, Spiffor. You have to have a story to get people interested in what you have to say before they will listen to a complicated position. Because let's face it, most politicians who have complicated positions just use that as an excuse to hold incomprehensible positions.

Well, I have had discussions as long as half an hour with voters, who were genuinely interested (notably because I listened to them, which was something completely new). By knowing them better, I had no trouble getting my points across. It's just that my points were completely opposite to their opinions.

I mean, when I am talking to a strongly right-wing attached, slightly racist voter, I can't get them to vote for me. When I'm talking to people who have decided to abstain because they hate our political system (in general, middle aged people who have been digusted by decades of lies), I cannot convince them to vote for "the guy who keeps his pormises" (i.e me)

	05-11-2004 08:37									#79
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Right - another strong point - most voters hate the permissive society.

There's an important political principle here - you can only reform to the limit the public will accept and perhaps a little beyond. To try and do more will make you feel good perhaps, but is political suicide.

Social Democratic parties once understood that. Tony Blair does. He keeps the leftwing of his party in check.

	05-11-2004 08:37									#80
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AH: This is good advice but it is a side issue. The real problem is the Democratic Party keeps nominating bad candidates. What do Dukmagen, Dukakus, and Kerry have in common? They were are to far left and they were all losers. Clinton and even Carter were close to the center and they won. The first three weren't southerners and the last two were southerners.

The moral of the story is southern centrists can win by picking up red states while northern liberal lose because they don't play well in rural areas.

	05-11-2004 08:38									#81
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Leftists are just sooo cute when they are being obstinate.

	05-11-2004 08:39									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Kind of sad really cause it would be really nice to have an alternative to the radicallization of the republicans.

Indeed.

Just like Republicans have to appeal to people who are not their ilk (read: people who are not elitist ultra-rich, actual benefit-havers of conservative governments), the Liberals must appeal to people who are not their ilk (read: people who are not elitist ultra-educated).

By wallowing in elitism, and condescending the ordinary voter, nothing good will come. Now, there is pandering and pandering. I completely agree with the idea that the Liberals should pander to the uneducated by understanding the value of uneducated people. I completely disagree with the idea they should pretend doing a policy they won't implement.

	05-11-2004 08:39									#83
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I agree. It's probably simpler than I make out - but the right candidate must have the right policies.

	05-11-2004 08:40									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Social Democratic parties once understood that. Tony Blair does. He keeps the leftwing of his party in check.

One of the first things Clinton did when he was nominated in 1992 was purge the party's leadership of the ideologue. He put them in a back room where they could huff and puff to their hearts content but where voters sure weren't going to see then.

	05-11-2004 08:41									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber And the liberals stick their fingers in their ears and sing loudly so not to hear good advice. Kind of sad really cause it would be really nice to have an alternative to the radicallization of the republicans.

Amen!

	05-11-2004 08:44									#86
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How was Kerrys election platform more liberal than Clinton's?

	05-11-2004 08:45									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin One of the first things Clinton did when he was nominated in 1992 was purge the party's leadership of the ideologue. He put them in a back room where they could huff and puff to their hearts content but where voters sure weren't going to see then.

Exactly! By 1996 even a lot of Republicans liked the guy. He wasn't crazy, worked with Congress, and helped to pass bills that satisfied Republicans and Democrats alike. He did what politicians do best, he compromised and actually got a lot of crap done.

	05-11-2004 08:48									#88
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AH is dead right.

Democrats fancy themselves as the party of the average citizen, yet look who they nominated! A poncy snot-nosed silver-spoon-fed tosser who married into wealth. How is the common man supposed to respect that? Bush was also brought up in the fold of the elite, but he seems more human than Kerry. I didn't think much of either candidate as politicians, but I know who I'd rather sit down and have a beer with. Sometimes that can count for a lot in an election.

	05-11-2004 08:51									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant How was Kerrys election platform more liberal than Clinton's?

For one thing Kerry touched on hot button issues like gay marriage which are political suicide also Clinton would get up and speak out against rap music like Queen Latifa advocating killing cops and he also pissed off lots of liberals by advocating centrist and conservative issues like welfare reform. He found issues which were of concern to average Americans, especially the center or right of center guys, which made them think he wasn't your run of the mill lefty.

	05-11-2004 08:52									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia AH is dead right. Democrats fancy themselves as the party of the average citizen, yet look who they nominated! A poncy snot-nosed silver-spoon-fed tosser who married into wealth. How is the common man supposed to respect that? Bush was also brought up in the fold of the elite, but he seems more human than Kerry. I didn't think much of either candidate as politicians, but I know who I'd rather sit down and have a beer with. Sometimes that can count for a lot in an election.

AH is right? What about me? I've written two threads on this in the last two days. Have I been howling at the moon?