07-11-2004 02:53									#361
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quote: But this painting of all people who voted for Bush as ignorant and brain washed is really stupid. And this whole Dems are smarter than Repubs attitude is just silly...

Who said they were necessarily ignorant? I pointed out that political conservatism tends to be psychologically motivated, and that the people who endorse it tend to suffer from mild mental impairment in dealing with complexity and change. That doesn't mean they don't know stuff, it just means that their manner of dealing with it is subnormal.

	07-11-2004 02:55									#362
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But what does it say about your philosophy given as it is to being held by people with anger problems, depression, and uncontrolled emotions, especially hatred?

	07-11-2004 02:58									#363
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quote: Zkribbler, that is not what Agathon said. He said "equality" in the sense that socialism defines equality: economic equality.

Equality is a broad concept.

Liberals are against the idea of inequality of persons, but tolerant of specific inequalities insofar as they raise the welfare of the worst off. That is the core idea of liberal justice - it is grounded in the equality of persons.

Communists are more radical, they seek an abolition of such inequalities on the grounds that liberalism is unstable and ends up slipping back into a hierarchical society, which in turn creates class conflict. Strict liberals believe that you can have an unequal society without class conflict.

	07-11-2004 02:58									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Who said they were necessarily ignorant? I pointed out that political conservatism tends to be psychologically motivated, and that the people who endorse it tend to suffer from mild mental impairment in dealing with complexity and change. That doesn't mean they don't know stuff, it just means that their manner of dealing with it is subnormal.

One would think, Agathon, that women would largely be conservative as they emotionally require a stable and secure society. But a majority of women support the Democrats. Seems counterintuitive.

	07-11-2004 02:58									#365
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT But what does it say about your philosophy given as it is to being held by people with anger problems, depression, and uncontrolled emotions, especially hatred?

That applies to both sides of the fence, my friend. The hatred the right had for Clinton was completely irrational, and it has since been expanded to include almost everyone on the left side of the right.

	07-11-2004 02:59									#366
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quote: But what does it say about your philosophy given as it is to being held by people with anger problems, depression, and uncontrolled emotions, especially hatred?

If you don't get angry and depressed about racism, homophobia and injustice there is something wrong with you.

	07-11-2004 02:59									#367
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Who said they were necessarily ignorant?

You have... many times

And to imply that being conservative is subnormal is an even worse generalization. It shows a total lack of knowledge and is just a knee jerk reaction to people who have different opinions than you do

	07-11-2004 03:02									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Ned One would think, Agathon, that women would largely be conservative as they emotionally require a stable and secure society. But a majority of women support the Democrats. Seems counterintuitive.

Because the GOP supports the individual at the expense of the community, and the Dems the opposite. Since women are mothers, they tend to be more community oriented, since that is where their children will be. The gender gap seemed to disappear this election because of the whole terrorism issue. Women don't want their children to be killed, so they voted for Bush for the same reasons they normally vote Dem, to promote the community.

	07-11-2004 03:03									#369
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That applies to both sides of the fence, my friend. The hatred the right had for Clinton was completely irrational, and it has since been expanded to include almost everyone on the left side of the right.

... read the board. You will note that the Left here on Apolyton tends to anger and hatred... moderation is not in your vocabulary, rather, you think that politics and ideology is the end-all, be-all of a persons worth.



Anyway, don't you remember the "are you an optimist or a pessimist" thread whereupon the Lefties overwhelmingly voted "pessimist" and the righties overwhelmingly voted "optimist"?

	07-11-2004 03:04									#370
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because the GOP supports the individual at the expense of the community, and the Dems the opposite. Since women are mothers, they tend to be more community oriented, since that is where their children will be. The gender gap seemed to disappear this election because of the whole terrorism issue. Women don't want their children to be killed, so they voted for Bush for the same reasons they normally vote Dem, to promote the community.

Talk about broad sweaping generalizations...

	07-11-2004 03:05									#371
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Equality is a broad concept. Liberals are against the idea of inequality of persons, but tolerant of specific inequalities insofar as they raise the welfare of the worst off. That is the core idea of liberal justice - it is grounded in the equality of persons.

I call this a lot of bull. Liberals are enormously intollerant of economic inequality and show this in almost everything they say or do. It is Republicans who advocate equal opportunity, quality education for all, equality before the law, etc. It is Democrats who are for demonizing the so-called rich, arguing class warfare endlessly, advocating steep progressive taxation and confiscatory estate taxes, and, if they could do it, total regulation of business for the "welfare" of the people (as proposed by Dean).

	07-11-2004 03:05									#372
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT ... read the board. You will note that the Left here on Apolyton tends to anger and hatred...

I notice the same thing about the right.

quote: Anyway, don't you remember the "are you an optimist or a pessimist" thread whereupon the Lefties overwhelmingly voted "pessimist" and the righties overwhelmingly voted "optimist"?

Never saw it. Interestingly, it seems to match something I'd been thinking about recently.

	07-11-2004 03:07									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Talk about broad sweaping generalizations...

Hence the use of terms like, "tend." Obviously it's not true in every case, but the gender gap and the reason for its existence have been well known for decades.

	07-11-2004 03:07									#374
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JohnT is correct... anybody that is smart can look at these forums and see that it is the "liberals" who are resorting to insults/hate... The you disagree with me so you are ignorant attitude is coming more from the "open minded" liberals than the conservatives...

	07-11-2004 03:08									#375
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Che, che...

Don't you notice that 96% of all "righties" on this board are mostly silent on the political issues? Oh, you have your Ned's and Fez's, loud as they can be, but me, Ming, Rah, DanS, Adam Smith...etc. tend to stay out of the ideology threads, where people do nothing but compare Holy Writ to Holy Writ.

We've got better things to do, you see.

	07-11-2004 03:09									#376
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Hence the use of terms like, "tend." Obviously it's not true in every case, but the gender gap and the reason for its existence have been well known for decades.

Sure there is a gender gap... males and females are different... but your generalization wasn't even close to being true...

	07-11-2004 03:10									#377
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Here's the optimist/pessimist thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=107708

	07-11-2004 03:10									#378
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quote: nd to imply that being conservative is subnormal is an even worse generalization. It shows a total lack of knowledge and is just a knee jerk reaction to people who have different opinions than you

I have science on my side.

	07-11-2004 03:10									#379
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Oops... looks like it got deleted. My apologies.

According to the thread, the boards pessimists are:

UberKrux
civman2000
Tripledoc
Osweld
Oncle Boris
Odin
Monkspider
Spiffor
Dissident
Shi (not a Lefty, but then, very few things are 100%).
Verres
Sava

Optimists:
Urban Ranger (not a Righty, but then, very few things are 100%).
Ogie Oglethorpe
JohnT
Drogue
Boshko

Again, we didn't vote in droves... probably that "we've got better things to do" thing again.

However, the trend is unmistakable. Lefties tend to be pessimistic, Righties tend to be optimistic. The question now is, which came first: the attitude or the ideology? My guess would be the attitude.

Last edited by JohnT on 07-11-2004 at 03:17

	07-11-2004 03:12									#380
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The problem with conservatism is that it isn't even a coherent ideology. Say what you want about the Liberals, but at least they have some justification for their fundamental principles of justice.

I've never seen a justification of conservatism that didn't explicitly or implicitly appeal to religious belief.

	07-11-2004 03:18									#381
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The problem with conservatism is that it isn't even a coherent ideology.

Just more of the since you don't agree with me you can't be right stuff

quote: Say what you want about the Liberals, but at least they have some justification for their fundamental principles of justice.

So... all liberals believe in justice, and all conservatives don't... is that really what you are saying...

	07-11-2004 03:20									#382
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quote: Just more of the since you don't agree with me you can't be right stuff

That's not what it says.

quote: So... all liberals believe in justice, and all conservatives don't... is that really what you are saying...

No. Please read more carefully.

	07-11-2004 03:22									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Zkribbler, that is not what Agathon said. He said "equality" in the sense that socialism defines equality: economic equality.

No, what he said was:

quote: Originally posted by Agathon In other news Saskatchewan has just legalized gay marriage. It's sort of funny that Liberals are being accused of looking down on people, since that is merely a contingent feature of Liberalism. Liberalism is founded upon equality and holds in low regard (i.e. treats as unequal) views that promote inequality. This is a contingent matter, if there was nobody holding such views, the attitude would vanish. On the other hand, inequality is essential to conservatism. Conservatives, whether they like to admit it or not, always have to have some group to hold in contempt due to their love of status hierarchies. It really doesn't matter who they are, yesterday it was blacks, now it's gays, tomorrow who knows?

He's talking about socal equality. There ain't a dollar sign in that statement anywhere. And, he's talking about liberalism, not socialism.

	07-11-2004 03:24									#384
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT However, the trend is unmistakable. Lefties tend to be pessimistic, Righties tend to be optimistic. The question now is, which came first: the attitude or the ideology? My guess would be the attitude.

Rightists and their idealist utopian fantasies.

	07-11-2004 03:24									#385
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I think I'll start a new thread to see if any of Poly's conservatives can come up with a coherent conservative principle of justice.

	07-11-2004 03:40									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler He's talking about socal equality. There ain't a dollar sign in that statement anywhere. And, he's talking about liberalism, not socialism.

Zkribbler, social equality in its ultimate form is economic equalitiy. Social equality is the bedrock concept of socialism, not of liberalism.

	07-11-2004 04:00									#387
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT However, the trend is unmistakable. Lefties tend to be pessimistic, Righties tend to be optimistic. The question now is, which came first: the attitude or the ideology? My guess would be the attitude.

To be honest, I think you are correct. Righties are far more optimistic about the future, despite having a pessimistic view of human nature, whereas lefties are the opposite. I think it's cuz righties don't care about anyone else so the don't look at what's going on in the world, whereas lefties care about others and are horrified by what you righties are doing.

	07-11-2004 04:02									#388
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Add me to the list of conservative optimists.

	07-11-2004 04:21									#389
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Oops... looks like it got deleted. My apologies. According to the thread, the boards pessimists are: UberKrux civman2000 Tripledoc Osweld Oncle Boris Odin Monkspider Spiffor Dissident Shi (not a Lefty, but then, very few things are 100%). Verres Sava Optimists: Urban Ranger (not a Righty, but then, very few things are 100%). Ogie Oglethorpe JohnT Drogue Boshko Again, we didn't vote in droves... probably that "we've got better things to do" thing again. However, the trend is unmistakable. Lefties tend to be pessimistic, Righties tend to be optimistic. The question now is, which came first: the attitude or the ideology? My guess would be the attitude.

wow, what a scientific study you did there!

	07-11-2004 04:26									#390
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You mean like this one AH? Amusing as all hell, but not terribly effective rhetoric:

quote: by Janet Sullivan By the time I had gone to bed, the chorus of pundits had fixed on a single tune, as they always do, and remarkably quickly, too. (Do they watch one another's feeds in the green room?) They had dusted off the old theme that the Democrats need to "reach out" more to the "heartland." Reach out? How, exactly? Forget that these folks blindly ignored all objective reality -- and their own best economic and national-security interests -- and voted for Bush. Look what they did at the Senate level. In Kentucky, they refused to use even basic sanity as a litmus test, and reelected a guy with apparent late-stage dementia; in Oklahoma, they tapped a fellow who wants to execute doctors who perform abortions, who was sued for sterilizing a woman against her will, who pled guilty to Medicaid fraud, and who largely opposes federal subsidies, even for his own state; in Louisiana, they embraced a man who has made back-door deals with David Duke and who was revealed to have had a long-running affair with a prostitute; in South Carolina, they went with a guy who thinks all gay teachers should be fired; and in Alaska, they reelected a woman who was appointed by her father to the job after a spectacularly undistinguished career as an obscure state senator. And compared with the rest of the GOP Class of '04, she's the freaking prom queen. These are the stellar elected officials that the "heartland" has foisted on the rest of us. "Reach out" to these voters? Yeah. Then boil your hand till it's sterilized.