06-11-2004 04:30									#271
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Shuddup commie!

	06-11-2004 05:42									#272
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quote: The argument is that liberals are nasty bitter people and they need to stop sneering at the god fearing terrorist hating good ol boys.

What??? Abandon our only argument against you?!?!

	06-11-2004 05:46									#273
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quote: that'd be interesting to see Aggie backing a pro-life candidate who is for less taxes and less social spending

Sig worthy!

	06-11-2004 08:40									#274
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Ted Striker: Master of the left handed compliment

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Horse as much as I think you are a jackass, I actually almost started a "Who would you vote for President" thread a couple of weeks ago and I would have picked you as my President You understanding of the common man, understanding of complex foreign issues, and your affectionate sleaziness remind me alot of Clinton Understanding of the key issues is clearly demonstrated in your skillful use of DL's to ignite people over hotbutton issues.

Er yeah, thanks Ted

	06-11-2004 09:35									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Pax I disagree. Ned, please stop stating what democrats believe. Part of our problem is allowing people like yourself to define our position. Democratic position is that the founding fathers got it right when they decided to seperate church and state. Ned, your model for a religous government would be Saudi Arabia or Iran. Democrats also believe that God gave man a brain to use. That means that when faced with insurmountable evidence, man should use the brains god gave him instead of praying to god for answers. God, is clearly sarcastic, so he would most likely say things like "What are you asking me for?", "Did'nt I give you a brain?", "Duh" , "There is such thing as a stupid question" or give you the wrong answer with a sarcastic sneer. This appears to be what happened to the other 51% of americans. God forgive them for they know not what they're doing.

Oh, the irony.

I hope you like losing.

	06-11-2004 10:37									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy What??? Abandon our only argument against you?!?!

I'm a liberal.

	06-11-2004 11:43									#277
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America loses, the world wins I'm fine with it.

	06-11-2004 11:55									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Ted Striker: Master of the left handed compliment Er yeah, thanks Ted

	06-11-2004 13:54									#279
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The substance of this thread appears to be that, in order to gain power, liberals must stoop to the bigotry of America's rednecks and not treat it with the utter contempt it deserves.

There's some things that you can't compromise on. If that means staying out of power for the foreseeable future, that's no big deal. It's certainly better than indulging the prejudices of low-life scumbags.

	06-11-2004 14:00									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon There's some things that you can't compromise on. If that means staying out of power for the foreseeable future, that's no big deal. It's certainly better than indulging the prejudices of low-life scumbags.

You're right. They should never swing your way.

	06-11-2004 14:07									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The substance of this thread appears to be that, in order to gain power, liberals must stoop to the bigotry of America's rednecks and not treat it with the utter contempt it deserves.

I disagree. It is about not showing contempt to those people. And even better, not having contempt for them. They are people too, and they want (and deserve) some respect. If you treat them with contempt, considering them as backward reactionary stupid hillbillies, it's obvious they won't be any sympathetic to your message. Even if they could agree on quite a few matters otherwise.

The most politically 'pragmatists' of this thread advocate at most some lip-service to the 'low-life scumbags' as you put it. Most people advocate not to concede anything on the ideological substance, but on campaign strategies.

	06-11-2004 14:22									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I disagree. It is about not showing contempt to those people. And even better, not having contempt for them. They are people too, and they want (and deserve) some respect. If you treat them with contempt, considering them as backward reactionary stupid hillbillies, it's obvious they won't be any sympathetic to your message. Even if they could agree on quite a few matters otherwise. The most politically 'pragmatists' of this thread advocate at most some lip-service to the 'low-life scumbags' as you put it. Most people advocate not to concede anything on the ideological substance, but on campaign strategies.

True

	06-11-2004 14:27									#284
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quote: I disagree. It is about not showing contempt to those people. And even better, not having contempt for them. They are people too, and they want (and deserve) some respect.

Sure it is. These people are the 00s version of the tossers who supported Jim Crow, the people who tolerated apartheid, and who didn't want to give women the vote or let them wear what they wanted. In every age we seem to look back and say, "people didn't know better then, but we are better now". The problem with that is that it's bollocks. The prejudice either remains or gets moved onto another target.

If you ever watch films of the Kent State shootings, you will see that some of the local townspeople who are interviewed applauding the killings. These are the kind of ****tards that deserve to have the **** beaten out of them, as do the New Zealanders who didn't care about blacks being murdered as long as they could play a game of rugby.

I would perhaps feel differently if Bush's victory hadn't been accompanied by this massive upsurge of anti-gay crap.

You can't compromise with bigots. Any attempt by the Democrats to do so would be a betrayal of some of their most loyal constituents.

Imagine if it had been race instead of sexual preference. Would anyone argue that the Democrats should start pandering to racists and proposing watered down Jim Crow laws just to get into power?

	06-11-2004 14:29									#285
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quote: The most politically 'pragmatists' of this thread advocate at most some lip-service to the 'low-life scumbags' as you put it. Most people advocate not to concede anything on the ideological substance, but on campaign strategies.

I don't think you can do that. They aren't that dumb. And why would they vote for homophobe lite, when they can get the real thing?

	06-11-2004 14:34									#286
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Bigotry of all kinds generally comes from emotional prejudice that is not backed by reason. Only a few real zealots are backing their bigotry with reasoned arguments.

To change the perceptions of the people, to help them get rid of their bigotry, you have to make the discussion open. I had very little trouble convincing many people here (where the mindset is more progressive than in the US, but far less than in Netherlands) that gay marriage was a good idea, and that there was no rational reason to oppose it. Simply because I respectfully listened where their original opposition came from, and because they were open to listen to me in return.

OTOH, my strong feelings about the EU constitution mean that I'm a poor debater on that issue: I am too eager to treat those people who support it as idiots (this is bad, I know). I have lost the possibility to discuss with people, and thus to convince them to change their minds, because my temper took over too quickly.

	06-11-2004 14:35									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't think you can do that. They aren't that dumb. And why would they vote for homophobe lite, when they can get the real thing?

Because they're actually homophobe-lites?

	06-11-2004 15:09									#288
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quote: Because they're actually homophobe-lites?

Nope. Canada has homophobe lites. About half of Canadians are uneasy about the idea of gay marriage, but most would never think of having the government deliberately legislated against it.

That's the difference.

quote: Bigotry of all kinds generally comes from emotional prejudice that is not backed by reason.

This I agree with. Liberals do have reason on their side. Which is not surprising given the roots of Liberalism in the Enlightenment.

quote: To change the perceptions of the people, to help them get rid of their bigotry, you have to make the discussion open.

This is where I disagree. I don't think conservatism of this kind can be "cured" by reason. I don't think political conservatism is motivated by reason anyway (especially in lower socio economic strata), it is psychological, motivated by a deep seated fear of change and desire for a strong hierarchy to anchor one's role in society. The only study I've ever seen says as much.

The Milgram experiments tell you all you need to know about the results of this sort of thing.

If it takes restructuring the system to minimize the influence of conservatives, then that is a worthy goal. Why let their pathology destroy the lives of others?

	06-11-2004 15:14									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Bigotry of all kinds generally comes from emotional prejudice that is not backed by reason. Only a few real zealots are backing their bigotry with reasoned arguments. To change the perceptions of the people, to help them get rid of their bigotry, you have to make the discussion open. I had very little trouble convincing many people here (where the mindset is more progressive than in the US, but far less than in Netherlands) that gay marriage was a good idea, and that there was no rational reason to oppose it. Simply because I respectfully listened where their original opposition came from, and because they were open to listen to me in return. OTOH, my strong feelings about the EU constitution mean that I'm a poor debater on that issue: I am too eager to treat those people who support it as idiots (this is bad, I know). I have lost the possibility to discuss with people, and thus to convince them to change their minds, because my temper took over too quickly.

You're a very rational, and self aware human, Spiff.

	06-11-2004 17:02									#290
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh, the irony. I hope you like losing.

Well, they are getting pretty experienced at it.

	06-11-2004 17:06									#291
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You go first.

	06-11-2004 17:17									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Pax It seems to be a world turned upside down when you look at the facts and see that the majority of americans still voted for Bush. Ned, I find a lot of comments you and others make about the left to be insulting. I believe that I am a pretty civil person. I don't believe that you are. Democrats are not trying to turn the rest of the country gay or make people stop going to church or submit to the will of terrorists or force your daughter to have an abortion. This is the way the Right has painted us. As a group that would take away Americans freedom. This is a dirty lie. So you can't blame us(the left) for being angry about being slandered.

Now you know how it feels. I dish it out here as best I can because the left constantly denigrates the right for being "stupid." When I call the left names, I am usually angry about some denigrating insult receieved from the left either toward me, towards Bush or towards people of faith in general.

PAX, you personally have always been a gentleman in any conversation with me. If I have ever offended you by any post directed to you, I apologize. I do not apologize for posts directed to the left in general because of their arrogance and insults.

Alexander's Horse has recognized this to be a character flaw of the left. This is good as it may reflect an overall recognition that the left is losing the battle of ideas due to its arrogance.

But with this statement, I feel I must point to the Bill Maher show that aired on HBO Friday night. He was more than insulting of Bush voters and anyone of faith. He was gross.

So much for the armistice.

	06-11-2004 17:17									#293
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Aggie:

quote: This is where I disagree. I don't think conservatism of this kind can be "cured" by reason. I don't think political conservatism is motivated by reason anyway (especially in lower socio economic strata), it is psychological, motivated by a deep seated fear of change and desire for a strong hierarchy to anchor one's role in society. The only study I've ever seen says as much. The Milgram experiments tell you all you need to know about the results of this sort of thing. If it takes restructuring the system to minimize the influence of conservatives, then that is a worthy goal. Why let their pathology destroy the lives of others?

How do you intend go about restructuring the system if you never gain political power?

	06-11-2004 17:30									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Pax I disagree. Ned, please stop stating what democrats believe. Part of our problem is allowing people like yourself to define our position. Democratic position is that the founding fathers got it right when they decided to seperate church and state. Ned, your model for a religous government would be Saudi Arabia or Iran. Democrats also believe that God gave man a brain to use. That means that when faced with insurmountable evidence, man should use the brains god gave him instead of praying to god for answers. God, is clearly sarcastic, so he would most likely say things like "What are you asking me for?", "Did'nt I give you a brain?", "Duh" , "There is such thing as a stupid question" or give you the wrong answer with a sarcastic sneer. This appears to be what happened to the other 51% of americans. God forgive them for they know not what they're doing.

PAX, agree in part. The left does not uniformly hate people of faith. But they do seem to think that anyone who believes in God is stupid. I simply refer you to the Bill Maher show of this Friday. Look for re-runs. He was really on the warpath about how stupid people who believed in God were.

As to me personally, I have repeatedly said that I am an agnostic. Belief in God requires faith, and I admit that I do not have it. Belief in God cannot be arrived at rationally. Coversely, categorical statements that there is no God are also irrational to the extent that rationality must be based on evidence, not assumptions.

My position on religion is that on the whole it is good to the extent it gets people to live virtuous lives. I would hope you would agree with at least this.

As to religion and government, it is clear that men of faith can be good leaders and presidents. Lincoln was such a man. The left seems to think that separation of church and state requires exclusion of men of faith from the reigns of power. They also seem to think that separation of church and state requires the state to suppress public displays of religion, perverting freedom "of" religion into freedom "from" religion.

	06-11-2004 17:45									#295
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Agathon, just as an example, the best way to address the "bigotry" of the religious against gays is to address why they believe gay sex is a sin and demonstrate, in religious terms, why this is wrong. Simply calling them names, saying they are homophobic or stupid or whatever is not a way to change minds.

	06-11-2004 18:38									#296
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But it makes him feel better about himself.

	06-11-2004 18:45									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Agathon, just as an example, the best way to address the "bigotry" of the religious against gays is to address why they believe gay sex is a sin and demonstrate, in religious terms, why this is wrong. Simply calling them names, saying they are homophobic or stupid or whatever is not a way to change minds.

You can't change a closed mind.

	06-11-2004 18:50									#298
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General Ludd, do we need any more proof of liberal arrogance?

	06-11-2004 18:54									#299
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Arrogance would be trying to change a closed mind.

Like, you know, preaching... or evangelism.

	06-11-2004 18:58									#300
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Arrogance would be trying to change a closed mind. Like, you know, preaching... or evangelism.

Arrogance implies condescension. It means the assumption that anyone who does not agree with you is stupid or close minded.