06-11-2004 01:04									#61
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And exactly how many of those are for web designers? Three? I've already applied to them. For ost of the rest, I'm either over or under qualified.

If you are as close to homelessness as you hint at then you just need a job, any job. It doesn't matter if it's a night watchman, at a liquor store, a waiter, or at a gas station.

When I graduated from college I couldn't find a job as a geologist right away so I ended up spending three months doing manual labor at construction sites. Yeah, it sucked but it kept my bills paid until something better came along.

	06-11-2004 01:05									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Japher My wife is out of work now too.

With a morgage like yours to pay too. That sucks man.

	06-11-2004 01:08									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Asher That last line about the "left" was obviously just a parody of Agathon's ridiculous comment (or I thought it was obvious, anyway). And I've no idea why you brought up Republicans. Do you think I'm Republican? I merely think that handing money out to people consistently unemployed is not a solution. And it is not a solution.

I made a mistake, I didn't realize the last part was a
parady.

My apologies. I tried to fix it some with an edit, but my personal editing policy is not to adjust the overall thing I wrote.

Oopsies.

Forgive?

-Drachasor

	06-11-2004 01:09									#64
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quote: That's what employment insurance is for, Aggie dear. If you are consistently unable to find steady work and end up in welfare, at that point something is seriously wrong...and the welfare system does nothing to solve the problem.

Why don't you think before you post? You consistently post idiotic comments like this which make you look like a pampered ignoramus.

Of course if you end up on welfare something is wrong - the main cause is that there are not enough jobs. Merely wishing that people currently on welfare would try harder to find work misses the point: most unemployment is structural unemployment. That can't be solved by stopping welfare checks or by moral lectures to the unemployed.

Welfare checks solve that problem, by providing an income so that people don't starve.

And employment insurance just is welfare under a different name. All welfare is a kind of social insurance.

	06-11-2004 01:10									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Welfare encourages people like che to stick with an obvious dead-end career choice instead of re-training into something the market actually demands. Make student loans easily accessible and subsidize education -- especially for students with family or dependents -- and let them become a valuable person in the market. Welfare cheques solve nothing. As usual the political left are completely out to lunch on how to solve an obvious social problem -- Welfare is not a solution.

Amen brother man!

Clinton and the centrist knew this, Repbulicans know this, but for some reason the left wing of my party can't figure this out.

	06-11-2004 01:12									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Amen brother man! Clinton and the centrist knew this, Repbulicans know this, but for some reason the left wing of my party can't figure this out.

Heeeey, I am of the left wing!

I am just do my best to be very pragmatic.

-Drachasor

	06-11-2004 01:16									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If you are as close to homelessness as you hint at then you just need a job, any job.

Not so close I'll take any job. If I'm still out of work in Janurary, then I'll take any work. It's the choice between paying the power bill or having food for a couple weeks.

If homelessness were iminient, I'd be on the phone to my dad telling him, "I'm moving to Indianapolis, so get ready." I really do not look forward to being a Burger King manager, though he'd be happy with both his sons in the business, though Theben would probably use it as his excuse to flee to California.

Bunnygrrl's in South Florida right now looking for a job down there, so we can scrounge together enough money to move where there are more web design jobs.

	06-11-2004 01:18									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why don't you think before you post? You consistently post idiotic comments like this which make you look like a pampered ignoramus. Of course if you end up on welfare something is wrong - the main cause is that there are not enough jobs.

The problem with this is there's lots of jobs, especially in computers.

There's just not many jobs for "web designers", a trade which went out of style in...oh...'99.

	06-11-2004 01:20									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The problem with this is there's lots of jobs, especially in computers. There's just not many jobs for "web designers", a trade which went out of style in...oh...'99.

I was just looking at jobs in my area today.

There is a web designer job open in my city!

Just move to Las Vegas, and you'll be hooked up.

	06-11-2004 01:21									#70
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quote: With a morgage like yours to pay too. That sucks man.

naw... we'll be fine.

I think she is happy as we haven't had any time off in over 18 months. She is hoping she doesn't find another job until after christmas, so she can work on the house.

We have been smart with our money, and I advocate the "pay yourself first" to her, since she doesn't know anything about investing. I keep her with a good savings and debt free. She did really good this year; her car is paid off until February, all insurance is paid until June, and she has 3+ months of her income saved up.

I think it's healthy to keep separate accounts. Her brother and his wife are always fighting about money and they have joint accounts, and they never talk about it.

	06-11-2004 01:24									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Asher There's just not many jobs for "web designers", a trade which went out of style in...oh...'99.

It's still a well paying job when you can get it. If I get rehired at J&J, which is a possibility, I could be making $35 $40 an hour. Since it's a two month gig, I'll basically pay off my credit cards, some of my old debt, and stash the rest that I don't spend on rent/bills, and food. Then we move to Ft. Lauderdale.

	06-11-2004 01:38									#72
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quote: The problem with this is there's lots of jobs, especially in computers. There's just not many jobs for "web designers", a trade which went out of style in...oh...'99.

Uh...OK. Are you prepared to take the massive tax hit that would result from instituting such programs? Student loans by themselves will not work. Moreover, are you prepared to take the massive pay cut you will get once the supply of people for your job swells as a result of such a program?

I thought not.

But it is irrelevant. It makes no difference what sort of jobs are available. The problem is structural unemployment. Governments have instituted many such job training schemes over the years and many people have taken advantage of them. The NZ government gives welfare beneficiaries a break on university costs and many people have taken up the opportunity. I know, I met many such people.

But unemployment hasn't miraculously disappeared and the unemployment rate hasn't really changed all that much. So you can go on making such suggestions, but it has been done before and it certainly doesn't solve the problem, which is a structural problem. As long as we all agree to have the kinds of economies we currently enjoy, we will have to suffer unemployment. The remedy for this problem is welfare payments. But they aren't just a remedy, they prevent lots of worse things from happening like an increase in the crime rate and other appalling social problems.

Most governments realize this, even if voters don't. That's why they are content to tinker with welfare rather than abolish it (even the radical right wing governments that NZ enjoyed during the 80s and 90s).

	06-11-2004 01:40									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Uh...OK. Are you prepared to take the massive tax hit that would result from instituting such programs? Student loans by themselves will not work. Moreover, are you prepared to take the massive pay cut you will get once the supply of people for your job swells as a result of such a program? I thought not.

I would be willing to pay more taxes to further subsidize education. Further, I do not genuinely believe I'd have to take a pay cut for my job. If Canada has a provenly highly educated workforce, more companies will likely get started. The number of computer jobs is not finite, it grows with demand.

	06-11-2004 01:47									#74
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quote: I would be willing to pay more taxes to further subsidize education. Further, I do not genuinely believe I'd have to take a pay cut for my job. If Canada has a provenly highly educated workforce, more companies will likely get started. The number of computer jobs is not finite, it grows with demand.

But what you want to do is interfere in the market to provide an increase in computer experts. If the market worked properly, you wouldn't need to do this. Presumably many people want a high paying job so are already studying computers.

Giving people a cheaper option to do it (which is what you have to do to make your scheme work) will mean a government created increase in supply, therefore the price will go down. Some people might start new firms, but with the government effectively subsidizing the computer industry the price will go down.

	06-11-2004 01:49									#75
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A good public transport network is essential to getting the unemployed back to work. A pity that the only good public transport system is a nationalised public transport system that hasn't been devastated by governmental neglect and/or malice.

	06-11-2004 01:51									#76
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People study computers these days because it's what they're good at, or like.

The people who studied it for money got bitten by the dot-com bust.

	06-11-2004 01:57									#77
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quote: People study computers these days because it's what they're good at, or like. The people who studied it for money got bitten by the dot-com bust.

If there is enough money in it, people will study it. If there is an undersupply of computer experts, the price for them will go up, causing an additional increase in people studying in it.

It's called the free market. Ever heard of it?

	06-11-2004 02:14									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I was just looking at jobs in my area today. There is a web designer job open in my city! Just move to Las Vegas, and you'll be hooked up.

On the up side Vegas's housing market is hot but homes are still affordable. You need AC for about half of the year but electricity is fairly cheap due to the number of hydroelectric dams on the Colorado river.

	06-11-2004 02:41									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon If there is enough money in it, people will study it. If there is an undersupply of computer experts, the price for them will go up, causing an additional increase in people studying in it. It's called the free market. Ever heard of it?

I love this

A communist giving a lecture on the free market to a rightist proposing a subsidy. Have I entered Bizarro-Apolyton ??

	06-11-2004 02:52									#81
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quote: A communist giving a lecture on the free market to a rightist proposing a subsidy. Have I entered Bizarro-Apolyton ??

No. It's just that most rightists aren't particularly well informed about their own positions.

Ironic? Perhaps... Dangerous... undoubtedly.

	06-11-2004 02:53									#82
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Who's on welfare? I'm on unemployment. Last time I tried to get the government to pay for me to be retrained they said it wasn't feasable. They only pay for programs which result in degrees or certificates, and none of those are less than six months, assuming I want to continue to work with computers.

How long does it take to get an MCSE and become a sys admin? Or a Cisco cert and become a network admin?

	06-11-2004 03:24									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No. It's just that most rightists aren't particularly well informed about their own positions. Ironic? Perhaps... Dangerous... undoubtedly.

Except you fail to recognize that the vast majority of rightists don't support an absolute free market and don't consider education wholly the province of the free market.

	06-11-2004 03:30									#84
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quote: Originally posted by pchang How long does it take to get an MCSE and become a sys admin? Or a Cisco cert and become a network admin?

Most junior colleges offer those course and you can get student aid. Unfortunately, the FAFSA application deadline was about a week ago. If unemployment's job retraining program won't pay for it then I suggest getting a night job as a security guard or something and spending the 6 months or so to get the certificate.

Constent upgrading of your skills is needed in the computer field.

	06-11-2004 03:33									#85
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quote: Except you fail to recognize that the vast majority of rightists don't support an absolute free market and don't consider education wholly the province of the free market.

Except you fail to recognize that the vast majority of rightists don't support an absolute free market when it has any prospect of benefiting the poor, gays, blacks and women.

	06-11-2004 03:39									#86
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?

	06-11-2004 03:45									#88
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Kuciwalker said:

quote: Except you fail to recognize that the vast majority of rightists don't support an absolute free market and don't consider education wholly the province of the free market.

Agathon said:

quote: Except you fail to recognize that the vast majority of rightists don't support an absolute free market when it has any prospect of benefiting the poor, gays, blacks and women.

Huh? Didn't he just establish that most rightists don't believe in the absolute free market? Aggie, you need to stop being a CCCP.

	06-11-2004 03:46									#89
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Leave Aggie alone. He only knows how to play one note.

	06-11-2004 03:58									#90
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quote: Huh? Didn't he just establish that most rightists don't believe in the absolute free market? Aggie, you need to stop being a CCCP.

That's two today. My family shall eat well for a week.