15-11-2004 19:44									#241
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Arrian, the landing spot hasn't been set into stone yet. But only flat land is possible for landing, yes.

As to hitting the DDs: I'm still not completely convinced, but I'll follow the popular vote. One at a time

Getting more navy: You're right, also if we want to set up a supply line. I do have an idea for chaining in a couple of turn, where we eliminate 1 hub from the chain by setting up 'double' hubs. It should mean we need a bit less pretection from DDs. However, at this moment, we have other priorities. I'll build a sub In WoC, and a TR in Hurricane, but for the moment that's about all we can miss in production. We're shipping another 6 MI off Stormia, soon there won't be any MI left.

DeepO

	15-11-2004 21:14									#242
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So the main objection to the North Plan is that stationing the fleet at Q774 results in the Arty threat?

What if we split the fleet into two elements:

A. 'Safety First' at Q7744
3 Destroyers
1 Carrier
13 Transports
(6 empty)
47 Marines
4 Settlers
4 Workers
1 Explorer
(Total of 56 units)
1 Fighter

[If necessary, I *believe* we can make the Settlers even safer by making sure they are on a Transport with only 7 units (disbanding a Worker, for instance)]

B. 'Mobile Threat' at Q774
3 Destroyers
1 Carrier
9 Transports
(all empty)
1 Fighter

What does Lego do then? Seriously, think about it!

No matter what, this still provides for a combined land/sea assault on Qanto, assuming we can break through whatever blockade they present.

Also, depending on what happens to the 'Mobile Threat', we can chain Marines onto those Transports for an attack on Sando.

Last edited by Theseus on 15-11-2004 at 21:22

	15-11-2004 21:52									#243
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My recollection of actions on stacked ships is that once the DD's get redlined, you will have empty TR's pop to the top for defense.

As those get damaged, the next undamaged TR will pop to the top of the stack.

If you do nothing with the cargo, they will go down with the ship, but I am not sure what happens if they are "awake". It could be that they will drop to an empty, but I have never seen this occur. The AI does not send empties.

	15-11-2004 21:54									#244
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Nope, I don;t think it matters if the transported units are awake. I *think* that less than fully loaded Transports are the last in line in defense, though.

	15-11-2004 22:27									#245
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I don't have access to Civ or I would test. Someone please test.

The scenario should be simple to create.
Coastal city for the player.
City somewhere for the AI.
AI Battleship 2 tiles from player's city.
1 HP Transport next to AI Battleship
4 HP Transport in player's city.
Units to put in the Transport.

Then play the scenario. Stick the units in the Transport. Move it on top of the 1 HP Transport. Declare War on the AI. End turn. See if units survive. Repeat with waking the units.

	15-11-2004 22:34									#246
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I'll do it...give me a bit.

	15-11-2004 22:44									#247
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Wow, that'd be cool - dynamically self-allocating passengers!

"Auto life-boat to friendly floating transports in the event of being sunk. Defy enemy battleships and amaze your opponents and allies alike! "

	15-11-2004 22:56									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus What if we split the fleet into two elements: ... A. 'Safety First' at Q7744 ... B. 'Mobile Threat' at Q774 ... What does Lego do then? Seriously, think about it!

If we go N, it's what we should do. I don't think we should go N though.

Most likely destroy our mobile threat (as it forks 4 cities) leaving us only able to hit Sand and Quanto with the safety fleet. This can be accomplished with conventional attacking, as at best we can hope to keep 3-4 "mobile" Transports. More likely Lego uses some Artillery and we lose all the "mobile" Transports though.

They can then pile into Quanto with ~50 Inf or equivalent and defend Sand with ~25 Inf or equivalent which we can't break through in either case. Fork and Abilene will be out of reach.

quote: No matter what, this still provides for a combined land/sea assault on Qanto, assuming we can break through whatever blockade they present.

We can do the same thing to the S though. Split on Abilene and Tip for sure. The differences are that Abilene gives us better odds because it's not on a Hill and Lego can't use their BB attacking our Marine carrying Transports in any case. Both are in our favor.

It still doesn't make it likely we take Abilene, but 50 Inf in Abilene gives us ~30% odds to take the city compared to ~3% in Quanto. It takes 56 Inf in Abilene to do what 50 Inf in Quanto will do.

	15-11-2004 23:04									#249
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

BB vs TR test

Trial 1
Reg TR with 6 M
Con TR
BB sinks Reg TR and all Marines

Trial 2
Reg TR with 6 M
Reg TR
Con TR
BB sinks empty Reg TR

Trial 3
Reg TR with 6 M
Reg TR with 5 M
Con TR
BB sinks Reg TR with 5 M

	15-11-2004 23:13									#250
	Remove this text

1) Can we afford to investigate Forkmouth? You'd expect the regulation 10 inf and 10 arty there, but the tanks don't seem to be evenly spread, so that may be all that is in the city, which would be do-able.

2) Theseus: was that with the marines awake, or sleeping in transports?

3) Lego has a spy. As far as we know, anyway. It is possible that they tried and failed a spy mission after they exposed our spy, and lost their, but we shouldn't count on that. So they can steal plans next turn, which they almost certainly should do if faced with two stacks of transports - they'd want to know what was in each stack before attacking. Any plan relying on that info being unknown to Lego should take this into account.

	15-11-2004 23:16									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson We can do the same thing to the S though. Split on Abilene and Tip for sure. The differences are that Abilene gives us better odds because it's not on a Hill and Lego can't use their BB attacking our Marine carrying Transports in any case. Both are in our favor.

As I see it, those are the only two key differences to going south.... doesn't do a lot for me.

Much more important to coordinate what we are doing with GoW. They key problem that Aeson highlights is that Lego has the ability to overstock WHICHEVER cities we want to fork with defenders and arty... we need to find some strategy that takes that ability away, and yet provides for a joint land/sea assault on our part. Perhaps in conjunction with GoW we can accomplish that.

I have to go out for about 2 hours. 'Til Lata...

PS: vulture, that was with the Marines loaded onto the TR while it was already at sea, meaning not with 'L' but rather by moving onto the sea tile location of the TR.

PS 2: Yes, I would anticipate a Lego spy. The two-element fleet still works even if they know the composition.

	15-11-2004 23:36									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Much more important to coordinate what we are doing with GoW. They key problem that Aeson highlights is that Lego has the ability to overstock WHICHEVER cities we want to fork with defenders and arty... we need to find some strategy that takes that ability away, and yet provides for a joint land/sea assault on our part. Perhaps in conjunction with GoW we can accomplish that.

Well, I posted this before... but in combination with GoW also doing a combined land / sea attack, we can threaten 6 cities. That should be enough to leave 1 city open. Further, next turn Lego can't risk to keep all its cities undefended (as I think they have now)

I think it's critical we have a reailistic threat on a city by sea, a city which we can't reach over land. It doesn't have to be a big one, we just need the pression. Perhaps a N invasion can also provide this, but no matter how you turn it, the invasion will be more prone to danger. Ships close to the shore are more in danger, and the North plan lets Lego calculate how many ships it has to bomb before it starts on the full transports, with enough ships nearby to create a major problem. On top of that, the blocking problem remains: Lego has at least 12 ships nearby which can be distributed over the different tiles to keep us from getting near a city. Blocking can't happen in the South, or we have to assume some 8 hidden Lego ships within range. I'm not saying the South is absolutely guaranteed to be safer than the North, but from what we have spotted, with the information we've got, it looks like that to me.

DeepO

	15-11-2004 23:41									#253
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quote: Originally posted by vulture 1) Can we afford to investigate Forkmouth? You'd expect the regulation 10 inf and 10 arty there, but the tanks don't seem to be evenly spread, so that may be all that is in the city, which would be do-able.

Well, we can do it, but if at all possible I'd like to avoid it. Forkmouth is little over 200 gold to investigate. That's 5 I to MI upgrades we could use.

quote: 3) Lego has a spy. As far as we know, anyway. It is possible that they tried and failed a spy mission after they exposed our spy, and lost their, but we shouldn't count on that.

wouldn't we be warned when they lost a spy in an attempt to steal technology, or our mil. plans?

quote: So they can steal plans next turn, which they almost certainly should do if faced with two stacks of transports - they'd want to know what was in each stack before attacking. Any plan relying on that info being unknown to Lego should take this into account.

Hmmm... I don't fully agree. I'm not sure as I haven't checked it this turn, but stealing plans is very costly. I thought that stealing Lego's plans would cost us over 5000 gold. Lego has a little voer 1400 gold right now, and without help from Vox only can get to less than 2400 gold next turn. It's not enough for stealing plans.

DeepO

	15-11-2004 23:44									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus [If necessary, I *believe* we can make the Settlers even safer by making sure they are on a Transport with only 7 units (disbanding a Worker, for instance)]

While you're testing, could you also test this? It would be important to know whether half full transports get picked before full transports. It could help us a lot with the marine / settler transports, no matter in which scenario we are.

DeepO

	16-11-2004 00:57									#255
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO While you're testing, could you also test this? It would be important to know whether half full transports get picked before full transports. It could help us a lot with the marine / settler transports, no matter in which scenario we are. DeepO

I did, and my original assumption was backward: partially full ships defend first.

	16-11-2004 01:22									#256
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partially full ships defend first? Good to know! This means any settlers have to be in full ships, while our most expendable troops should be in the others. We might use this to e.g. make 1 ship with 4 M 4 S, 1 with 6M 1S, and the others with 6M. We've got 39M and 6 S, or 47M and 6S to distribute, there will be empty spots anyway.

Another small thing perfected

DeepO

	16-11-2004 01:32									#257
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Just for worst case planning, shouldn't we try to have as many 7 M + 1 S loads as possible?

	16-11-2004 02:23									#258
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I can't give the price for stealing plans, but it will be very high, more than 3K I would think. I cannot see anyone risking all that cash on a long shot in the first place. Second they seem to have a darn good idea what we are about already.

Rushing units is a better way to spend money for them, don't forget they may have to face us and GoW.

	16-11-2004 02:49									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Just for worst case planning, shouldn't we try to have as many 7 M + 1 S loads as possible?

maybe better to distribute a little, yes. Let's say 3 with 6M 2S, 1 with 6M 1 S, 3 with 5M. Also possible are combinations like 2x 6M 2S, 2x 6m 1S. In any case, we need to use 6 TR for that M+S force.

DeepO

	16-11-2004 02:50									#260
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vmxa, which invasion spot do you prefer? So far, very little people have made their voice heard. I'm counting 1 for Q77, 2 for A78 for the moment, if possible I'd like to hear more opinions.

DeepO

	16-11-2004 03:08									#261
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I seem to have lost the overall plans so excuse me if I'm being niaave but would it be possible to unload all units then just build a city, move any surviving transports in and re-load a selection of units for an attack somewhere.

	16-11-2004 04:35									#262
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO vmxa, which invasion spot do you prefer? So far, very little people have made their voice heard. I'm counting 1 for Q77, 2 for A78 for the moment, if possible I'd like to hear more opinions. DeepO

To be honest I do not feel I have enough playing at either MP or massive complex naval manuevers to jump in.

I do mainly one or two fleets out at once. Not enough for anyone to listen to me on such a critical play.

But to answer, after a fashion, I abhor the idea of losing lots of troops at sea.

We (at least me) were shocked at how many battles they managed to put on us in their last turn at sea. I am inclined to bow to Aeson. He has put the work into it and is the only one who stepped up when you called for generals.

To be truthfull I think you are a much better general that you claim credit for being.

Anyway if I had a strongh feeling I would jump in, but I don't have one. So I will defer to those that do.

	16-11-2004 05:28									#263
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How much would it cost to steal their map?

	16-11-2004 05:44									#264
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Yes, I just had the same idea... it would be useful to know what coastal cities if captured would provide the best window into their heartland.

	16-11-2004 06:15									#265
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DeepO, if in any way my banging away about the north plan is holding things up, don't worry about it... go ahead as previously planned.

I had hoped to bring Aeson around to my thinking, but, as that has not been the case, let's head south!!

That said, I do like the idea of a two element forward fleet for future consideration... chaining the Marines, as it were, for greater range.

	16-11-2004 06:16									#266
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And I agree with v, btw... you are much more of a general than you give yourself credit for.

	16-11-2004 06:46									#267
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I honestly feel that the views of the Generals here (including those who don't see themselves that way) are worth 10 votes to every 1 of mine. I can chip in here and there but all I'm likely to do is bump the post count of the hottest GS turn thread since the Vox war. (I checked ).

Watching my team-mates thrash out these arguments here is an honour. As Jim Morrision said of his band : "proud to be part of this number".

On the basis of discussion thus far, my vote is for the Southern Plan.

	16-11-2004 06:52									#268
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Adding to the post count : How does one check the post count?

	16-11-2004 07:11									#269
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The post and views are stated in the forum next to the thread, you just forgot about. When you look, you will hit yourself in forehead and do the Doh thing.

	16-11-2004 07:23									#270
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* Theseus smacks hisself in da head.

Doh!