14-11-2004 03:06									#1
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I have several games that have either died or will do, none of which Ive set up so have no control over


So........


Anybody else want to join me in a new game

Use this thread for discussion etc and see what comes to pass

First come first in and I dont mind it being 8 players but 5 would be optimum, if more come forward maybe two games could spring forth

Last edited by ChrisiusMaximus on 17-11-2004 at 03:40

	14-11-2004 03:12									#2
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A diplogame, perhaps? Just an idea.

	14-11-2004 03:13									#3
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welcome Modo please elaborate

	14-11-2004 03:24									#4
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The general idea is that we roleplay the civs we have a little more. This means pursuing what would be more apropriate to the government form, the civ traits and other factors related to the civ. So, in general, a peaceful civ will probably not go to war eagerly, except for a good reason. A fighter is probably going to fight, even unprovoked. A honorable partner will seldom betray anyone. A barbarian on killing frenzy... oh well, you get the drift.

Something described by nbarclay and OzzyKP in this thread in the Apolyton University forum made me think about such a game. Follow the link to the Diplogame FAQ for more details.

	14-11-2004 03:29									#5
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intersting idea thanks Ill take a look at the links

any more takers any other thoughts ??

	14-11-2004 18:09									#6
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Interesting reading Modo and maybe possible to incorporate some of the ideas into a game

I will leave this open for a few days to see what other interest there is, come on people

	15-11-2004 01:31									#7
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i'd like to play another game

4-5 player diplogame sounds like some fun

	15-11-2004 01:43									#8
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Welcome aboard smelly

	15-11-2004 10:13									#9
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If you're interested in an actual diplogame there's a forum for such things, and Paddy indeed just started one (look in his sig, i'm sure you all have a game with him somewheres )

It sounds almost like (some) of you would be interested in what i'll term a Arpygame. Individual players (not teams or single team) control various civs, and roleplay their civs in whatever way they see fit. No stringent regulations, other than you stay in whatever character you feel is accurate to your civ - it can change from time to time as long as you explain it through storyline.

Turn tracker thread would become a Story Thread, a generalist thread where all players post each turn, and you can seperately have your own thread (if you want, anyways) with your country's story, going more in-depth (and in fact talking about secret details other civs shouldn't know).

Ultimately we would be playing to win, somewhat, but more to have fun and to roleplay. I suggest 8 civs, because more civs makes more fun, but you could have fewer if you wanted it to move faster. You might start out with a "set game" (either a scenario or just some settled cities and/or bonus settlers/units) just to make the game more interesting from a RP point of view to start with.

Game rules would be much looser - you can't discuss things until you meet up, but other than that not a whole lot of restrictions, other than you have to explain anything you do through storyline, and it has to be at least somewhat realistic based on tech and physical reality.

Anyone interested? It would be a bit more of a time commitment than most other games, but you would probably have a whole day per turn if you need it (later on anyway, you don't need a day to play 4000 BC ) so the game would take forever, but it would be ok because you'd be having fun Not sure if this has been tried in this format before - i've never seen it but i've only been here since April, and never in civ2 or SMAC forums...

	15-11-2004 19:46									#10
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Hmmmmm... sounds interesting.

Egyptians please.

	15-11-2004 19:47									#11
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You may also want to pm 1889. His storyline in the Rumble in the Jungle game has been wonderful.

	16-11-2004 01:11									#12
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Ask He is a pretty good player

	16-11-2004 02:25									#13
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I'd be interested in playing, although this would make my first PBEM game here at Apolyton, If you are cool with that, I would love to join. Sounds fun, I try to storyilize (Yes I just made that word up.) even my single player games.

What size map/other options?

I think I would like Carth.

	16-11-2004 04:04									#14
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I'm going to redirect discussion of the game I suggested here. Chrisius, if this is along the lines of what you're interested in, I'll hand you the reins to mold into what you see fit; if it's not, or you're not interested in molding it, I'll happily lead on, and you can either play along, or start what you're more interested in Either way more discussion of my suggestion should head over to the other thread.

	16-11-2004 04:13									#15
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so is this game going to be played exactly as outlined in the diplogameFAQ?

	16-11-2004 05:04									#16
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The game I'm proposing wouldn't be played exactly as such, but in that general way. A Diplogame is specifically expected to involve a large amount of diplomacy; an Arpeegame is looser - you can be a diplomat if you want, or a warmonger if you want, who eschews the fine art of diplomacy for the blunt art of the sword. (Yes, a diplogame involves war, but not usually *only* war.) In the sense that you wouldn't be playing to win, exactly, but more for the story, yes it's like a diplogame, and many of the parts of the diplogame faq would be accurate.

But like I said above, if Chrisius wants to take it over and direct it more towards that i'm fine with it either way.

	16-11-2004 05:31									#17
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Hi snoopy and welcome Beta and Earthworm

Conmcb25 are you requesting to join this yourself or just proposing the almighty Banana ?? either way you are most welcome

Beta you mentioned 1889, I dont have an email for him so could someone send him an invite on my behalf

If 1889 wants in that makes 8 players which after consideration i feel is better for a diplo game. The more players the more diplomacy!!

Yes it might move slow at times but it could easily develop into something of great value and be good fun to be part of.

Ive read up on the links Modo provided higher up the thread and I think that we could use the diplo game Faq to form the frame of something here.

snoopy the thread you link to, an Arpee' game ! i think you may actually be thinking along the same lines as me, on reading the diplo faq etc it seems the emphasis is on all civs surviving the game at all costs and working together as a sort of league of nations . Thats all good but what do others feel about this, Im wondering if it might be too constrictive !!

	16-11-2004 05:48									#18
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I agree chrisius. Although I'd rather people not play QUITE as aggressively as many do in normal games, I don't like the idea of eliminating the "sudden-death" possibility of being eliminated at any time...

	16-11-2004 06:07									#19
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Yes same here

so how do we take this forward then, a melding of Iron civer and diplo perhaps ?

On elimination should we draw up some kind of agreement ? I know from experience how it feels to be eliminated from a game early, and its unfullfilling to say the least.

Im happy enough to have a rule stopping complete elimination of any civ but do not want to be totally shackled from warring if i so desired.

The other important distintinction to be made from the diplo idea is that PBEM is normally played to be won by participants, will the game hold our interest if we abide strictly to the diplo ideal of no eliminations, and will the player who might end up with very little civ left after an onslaught still have the desire to play ??

If and only if all players can agree to these ideas before the game will it be workable, and all players would need to commit to seeing it through to the end no matter what happens to them in the game.

To my mind the only victory conditions you could allow for Diplo would be UN Space and Culture to encourage more building and less fighting, any thoughts ??

	16-11-2004 06:11									#20
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Would VP locations be useful, they could serve as an emphasis for warfare to be held and protected they could even be a way of limiting wars to certain areas rather than the usual whole empires burning scenario ??

Any thoughts ??

	16-11-2004 08:13									#21
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not sure about VP.. do you mean to say that we'll have a map beforehand and place the VP, or let the map generator place them randomly? in either case, i don't think we need them.

for winning conditions, all victory conditions should be allowed. if someone ends up with a conquest victory, as long as its done according to the way this game is supposed to be played, then good for them.

i think the common effect we want here is to not erase the option of warmongering... perhaps just 'tone' it down a little, so that way the super micromanaging statistician won't go for the 'overwhelm with mathematical superiority by equationalizing every turn' route, if that makes any sense.

and im for using the iron civer etiquette rules

	16-11-2004 08:38									#22
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Yes, more of an RPG than a Diplo game. I'm not yet sure if I have time. I'm waiting for another game to start, but it seems to have died in the mean time. I'll know for sure in a day or two.

I like the Iron Civer rules, but would ask that everyone actually read them. It think many people say "Oh sure, but I don't cheat so I don't need to read all that junk."

Well thats what I imagine they say anyway.

	16-11-2004 09:05									#23
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I strongly ... refuse, to use iron civer rules in this situation. They are NOT made for this sort of game, and as the name implies are for "iron civers" that, among other things, agree not to use very much diplomacy (it severely restricts various diplomatic options, and would in fact make this game literally impossible for the first several turns, since the point of a RP/diplogame is storyline-from turn 1, not from contact. I believe Iron Civer rules are nice for the occasional game where you want to truly test the abilities of strategists, but otherwise they are NOT made for casual play, and ESPECIALLY not made for fun play.

	16-11-2004 09:12									#24
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In terms of options, I dislike VPs for this sort of thing, mostly because they make the game unrealistic in a game that's intended to be more real than normal games. Although I'd love to play a VP game that's an otherwise normal game sometime.

I believe that as long as all players are on the same page, we don't have to strongly emphasize or otherwise force players not to eliminate each other - just mention that in RL you rarely see a civ "eliminated"; with the occasional exception of Carthage, most wars end up with either a war indemnity, some small amount of taken territory, or just a repulsion of attacking forces. Few wars at all post-Roman Empire in fact end up with a major civilization being utterly destroyed.

The only major requirement I would want is that players storytell for each turn before they play the next one. You don't have to have the story done when you send on the save - but before you receive, or at least send on, the *next* one, at least post a few sentences. Doesn't have to be a novel - could easily be much shorter than this post - but should be something.

	16-11-2004 13:06									#25
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The key thing is to behave as if you are leading an actual civ while you play. That would mean no attacking for no reason. No elimination of the other civ if it is submissive. No pop rushing for no reason either.

	16-11-2004 17:27									#26
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... however the reason can be that the civ is led by a madman whose only guiding principle is the utter destruction of civ A, and who doesn't care about his own citizens (and in fact likes to keep them under control) ... if that's how things are in your civ.

	16-11-2004 18:02									#27
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Yes, that is a reason enough, but must be accompanied by an appropriate story. Such a madman should not be surprised if the rest of the world would gang up on him to punish him for his dastardly practices

	16-11-2004 19:26									#28
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I just bumped the DiploFAQ that I posted in this forum a bit ago. It quickly dropped then, and hopefully someone will read it this time, but I dunno.

If its a Diplogame you want, then I'm up for one. I've got a map made already even. THough if we go with 8 players I'd need to tweak it.

	16-11-2004 19:33									#29
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Ozzy, perhaps you didn't see the link in one of the posts above. Here it is:

Diplo game poll

	16-11-2004 21:34									#30
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OK well we certainly have more than enough interest here for two games, please also see snoopy's thread

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=125408

Here is the list of names that have posted to this thread in order they posted.

ChrisiusMaximus
Modo
smellymummy
snoopy369
Beta
Conmcb25 ?? not sure if hes interested or just posting bananas
Earthworm
1889 will let us know in a few days
Ljube-ljcvetko
OzzyKP

Obviously only 8 can join any one game so as I said its first come first served here, but snoopy's thread still has room for a few more and Im waiting on confirmation from Conmcb25 and 1889.

Thanks for all the input from everyone with ideas suggestion etc

What I want to now do is set up a game to play using the diplo faq idea as a basis for the game play but without the restriction of the no eliminations idea.

As stated by Ljube any leader who warmongered too intensley would likely suffer the wrath of the other nations which should balance out warmongering and probably stop eliminations from happening, I particulary like the idea of colonial poseesions dicussed in the faq in that they can be used to buy back core lands from a victorious enemy after a war and I feel that wars should be limited to goals and not to wipe out a civ completlly.

But the only way to fully police this is for all other players to use diplomacy effectively so as to contain a renegade states aggression.

I will use a huge random map for early game discovery etc and plenty of room for colonies etc, with archipelogo and most land settings. Ive played maps like this a few times and it usually gives plenty of single civ sized island and plenty of naval choke points. Would setting a limit on cities be possible ?? is it possible to limit each civ to a specific number of cities, that would make colonies a neccesity in the later game and prevent domination and conquest which I want to do.

I agree after some thought that VP locations would be problematic but still only want the more builder style victory conditions on ie diplo culture and space.

I would need help with the editor if we do limit cities etc Im useless with it

So I need confirmation please of whose in and also please post your civ choices and your preferences for the map etc and the other things ive raised, then ill progress to setting up the game with some help from someone