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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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I think I should better don't reply this post.
We can't find any compromise over some issues, so I'll better shut up to prevent loss of your freindship.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
I must be kidding |
Nope, I'm not kidding.
1. The EU's policies since the fall of the Soviet empire weren't obsessed by containing Russia's power, unlike what you seem to believe.
2. The EU (and especially Germany) was the political entity that tried the most to integrate Russia into the democratic/capitalist world, what we called the "Free World" during the cold war.
quote:
After the fall of the great and the mighty Evil Empire, the west pissed off Russia over every issue. You have double standards for national minorities. You are ready to bomb Serbia to the ground to give Albanian minority in Kosovo wide authonomy (de-facto their own independent state), but don't care a thing about Russian speaking minorities (that represent great % of population there) in Baltic states. |
We do care a thing about every minority in the EU. We have the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, and many countries have considerably progressed before their entrance in the EU with regard to the integration of their minorities (most notably Hungary with the integration of its strong Rom community).
The EU presses its members to adhere to the Charta (to the point that even France signed it despite its strong opposition).
Besides, I don't remind having heard of Russian-speaking Estonians or Latvians being thrown out of their homes by the thousands, being systematically brutalized by the military, and being regularly killed.
Lastly, many EU countries sought a peaceful solution to the ethnic cleansing happening in Kosovo, when the American diplomacy barged in and started the war. Just look at what happened during the Rambouillet bargainings, when Albright completely ignored Rugova and Milosevic to immediately favor the UCK 
quote:
You have a double standard for terrorist- those who fight against you are terroirsts, those who fight against Russia are freedom fighters. |
Where did you see that?
Chechen separatists are called "terrorists" on our media just as frequently as the Iraqi guerilla is. i.e., when they commit terrorist attacks we hear about, such as Beslan's, such as the attack in Moscow's theatre etc.
We do not support these *******s. Actually, it is a pretty well documented fact among the EU population that the Chechen separatists are Islamists, exactly of the kind we hate. Those who are really interested in the question know even that they stem from outside of Chechnya, and they are the main cause as to why the war continues.
Now, even if we dislike your enemies, doesn't mean that we have to support you in whatever you do. You have leveled Groznyi! How can you expect our continent, whose public opinion so opposed the war in Iraq on grounds of the destruction it'd wrought, not to oppose a regime that wipes out a whole city?
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You surround Russia with NATO bases. |
Your neighbours want these NATO bases in. Saras asked a good question: why do you think they want these bases?
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Your media is carrying out anti-Russian and anti-Putin campaign, etc, etc... |
Our media was actually quite favourable to Putin when he first came to power. He brought stability in a place we knew to be filled of corruption and mafias (Eltsin's Russia). He brought economic growth.
Of course, his handling of the Chechnian crisis, and his increasingly authoritarian grip on the government made him look far worse.
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And don't play an angel about trade between our countries. So far you do not have a real alternative for cheap Russian gas and oil. |
And just how did we before the fall of the Iron Curtain  ?
The trade relationship between the EU and Russia stems from political will. This si the same spirit that animated Europe's foundign fathers, when they wanted economic solidarities to be woven between the former enemies of WW2, before beginning true political solidarities. It's not the optimal situation, but it works.
The Russia-EU efforts to liberalize trade between us show that, if anything, we don't want to isolate Russia behind a new Iron Curtain, but at the contrary integrate it.
If we wanted to isolate you, we'd make embargoes on you - it wouldn't have changed much for us given the low trade between the Soviet and the Western bloc during the cold war. And we'd take our oil from the Middle East as usual.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Saras
I'd rather not have you hold a grudge - a sincere debate is welcome. |
I don't mind another Apolyton OT bloodbath, but I can't fight vs. you, because I really don't want to lose your freindship. Go ahead, call me chiken.
p.s. FYI, the evil Putin's media now refers to problems of Russian speaking minorities in Baltic states as problems of Russian speaking minorities in Latvia and Estonia only. It doesn't mention Lithuania now.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Nope, I'm not kidding.
1. The EU's policies since the fall of the Soviet empire weren't obsessed by containing Russia's power, unlike what you seem to believe.
2. The EU (and especially Germany) was the political entity that tried the most to integrate Russia into the democratic/capitalist world, what we called the "Free World" during the cold war.
quote:
After the fall of the great and the mighty Evil Empire, the west pissed off Russia over every issue. You have double standards for national minorities. You are ready to bomb Serbia to the ground to give Albanian minority in Kosovo wide authonomy (de-facto their own independent state), but don't care a thing about Russian speaking minorities (that represent great % of population there) in Baltic states. |
We do care a thing about every minority in the EU. We have the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, and many countries have considerably progressed before their entrance in the EU with regard to the integration of their minorities (most notably Hungary with the integration of its strong Rom community).
The EU presses its members to adhere to the Charta (to the point that even France signed it despite its strong opposition). |
1) I can't read your link.
2) Perhaps for Hungrians you have one standard, but for Russians you have another. Russians in Latvia and Estonia are treated as second-grade humans, and nobody cares a **** about that in EU.
quote:
Besides, I don't remind having heard of Russian-speaking Estonians or Latvians being thrown out of their homes by the thousands, being systematically brutalized by the military, and being regularly killed. |
Russians in Latvia and Estonia ARE SYSTEMATICALLY thrown out of their homes by TENS of thousands and systematically brutalized by the police. Their government doesn't slughter them openly, but still they have a discriminating policy of expelling towards them.
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Lastly, many EU countries sought a peaceful solution to the ethnic cleansing happening in Kosovo, when the American diplomacy barged in and started the war. Just look at what happened during the Rambouillet bargainings, when Albright completely ignored Rugova and Milosevic to immediately favor the UCK |
Who cares who started it. Sure Clinton was the main bastard, but still it was a NATO operation-the agression of NATO vs. independent country, the vioalation of UN chapter.
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Where did you see that?
Chechen separatists are called "terrorists" on our media just as frequently as the Iraqi guerilla is. i.e., when they commit terrorist attacks we hear about, such as Beslan's, such as the attack in Moscow's theatre etc.
We do not support these *******s. Actually, it is a pretty well documented fact among the EU population that the Chechen separatists are Islamists, exactly of the kind we hate. Those who are really interested in the question know even that they stem from outside of Chechnya, and they are the main cause as to why the war continues. |
Sorry, but no matter how I tried, I always saw rebels, freedom fighters, gunmen, militants, insurgents and the same definitions for people who took children hostages and slaughter them. BBC didn't call them terrorist at least once.
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Now, even if we dislike your enemies, doesn't mean that we have to support you in whatever you do. You have leveled Groznyi! How can you expect our continent, whose public opinion so opposed the war in Iraq on grounds of the destruction it'd wrought, not to oppose a regime that wipes out a whole city? |
Civilians of this city (founded by Russians, btw and the city where tens of thousands of Russians lived until being slaughtered by those freedom fighters when they declared independence after the fall of USSR) had over a month to leave the city (it's something what glorious US army have not don't prior the storm of Al-Falujah). If you think that Al-Falujah or Mosul looks better than Groznyi, you are mistaken. It's war goddamnit and when your enemy hides in a city, you go there and finish him off.
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Your neighbours want these NATO bases in. Saras asked a good question: why do you think they want these bases? |
Why, oh, why?
Because they are... ready to sell their land to those who are ready to buy. They are unable to carry out their own independent foreign policy and doomed to be on someone's side. So, it's pretty logical they choose the strongest side. (Sorry Saras)
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Our media was actually quite favourable to Putin when he first came to power. He brought stability in a place we knew to be filled of corruption and mafias (Eltsin's Russia). He brought economic growth.
Of course, his handling of the Chechnian crisis, and his increasingly authoritarian grip on the government made him look far worse. |
Or perhaps your media was quite favourable to Putin when he first came to power, because they though he is the heir of Yeltsin who will continue to screw-up Russia?
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And just how did we before the fall of the Iron Curtain ? |
I'm pretty sure you did the same way. I think the bulk of SU's gas and oil export went to Europe since Brezhnev's times.
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The trade relationship between the EU and Russia stems from political will. This si the same spirit that animated Europe's foundign fathers, when they wanted economic solidarities to be woven between the former enemies of WW2, before beginning true political solidarities. It's not the optimal situation, but it works.
The Russia-EU efforts to liberalize trade between us show that, if anything, we don't want to isolate Russia behind a new Iron Curtain, but at the contrary integrate it.
If we wanted to isolate you, we'd make embargoes on you - it wouldn't have changed much for us given the low trade between the Soviet and the Western bloc during the cold war. And we'd take our oil from the Middle East as usual. |
With such oil prices embargos are out of the question. You do not have that luxury anymore (like you ever had). You need Russian gas and oil (not that we don't need your money you pay for it, but you really can't put embargo on us, at least now).
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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oddly, when Latvia applied to the EU, THIS is what ethnic Russians chose to protest.
"RIGA, , May. 1 (UPI) -- While Latvia formally joined the European Union Saturday, ethnic Russians in the country held a huge rally in defense of their language rights.
The ex-Soviet nation along with nine other states joined the EU Saturday. But at least 20,000 protestors marched peacefully through Riga to protest a law curbing the use of Russian in education, the BBC reported.
Under an EU law, all schools must teach mainly in Latvian.
Russian speakers make up almost a third of Latvia's population, and less than half of them have been given citizenship.
The demonstrators, many bused into the capital, sang the anthem of the Russian-language movement, a version of Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall."
The demonstration centered at the Soviet-era Victory Monument, which commemorates the defeat of Nazi Germany. Many Latvians see the monument as a symbol of the beginning of Soviet oppression."
Had we intervened in FRY in defense of Albanian language rights, we would have had to go in years before we did. However we did not.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
1) I can't read your link. |
this one should work
quote:
2) Perhaps for Hungrians you have one standard, but for Russians you have another. Russians in Latvia and Estonia are treated as second-grade humans, and nobody cares a **** about that in EU. |
They are treated as second-grade citizens (actually, as no citizens at all, since most of them have no nationality), but the EU does care.
Latvia is the country where the problem is the worst. At the independence, Latvia only gave nationality to those who were there before 1945, and their offspring. Meaning that only about half of the population had the Latvian nationality.
There have been two waves of naturalization for the Russian minority, and now half of that minority has the Latvian nationality. The Russians of Latvia have the EU to thank for that, given that the local Latvian authorities hate the "invaders". And the EU demands more, and are now backed by the second party of Latvia, a Russophone party.
As soon as Estonia candidated for the EU membership in 1995, it was required to integrate its Russophone citizens. The integration is vastly insufficient, but at least, the Russophones devoid of Estonian nationality can vote in local government. And it has been noticed they now vote more on ideological than on ethnical reasons, which is an encouraging sign that integration progresses. Again, these progresses mostly stem from the EU, although Estonia doesn't seem as hostile as Latvia.
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Russians in Latvia and Estonia ARE SYSTEMATICALLY thrown out of their homes by TENS of thousands and systematically brutalized by the police. Their government doesn't slughter them openly, but still they have a discriminating policy of expelling towards them. |
Your claim made me curious, and I googled about the situation of the Russian minority in these countries. After all, given their poor treatment wrt civic rights, that could be possible.
I haven't found even one source that confirms what you are saying, including on websites that defend the rights of minorities. Could you please give me sources of that?
quote:
Civilians of this city (founded by Russians, btw and the city where tens of thousands of Russians lived until being slaughtered by those freedom fighters when they declared independence after the fall of USSR) had over a month to leave the city (it's something what glorious US army have not don't prior the storm of Al-Falujah). If you think that Al-Falujah or Mosul looks better than Groznyi, you are mistaken. It's war goddamnit and when your enemy hides in a city, you go there and finish him off. |
It is the very same reason why our public opinion opposed the war in Iraq. Because we oppose the conditions which lead to such terrible destruction. Because we oppose the heavy-handling of such a situation.
If you think the EU hates Russia because we oppose the way you handle Chechnya, then the EU also hates the US for its behaviour in iraq, it hates Israel for its behaviour in Palestine, it hates China for its behaviour in Tibet, it hates Sudan for its behaviour in Darfur etc, it hates Turkey for its behaviour in Armenia etc...
Do you really think we hate all those countries?
quote:
Why, oh, why?
Because they are... ready to sell their land to those who are ready to buy. They are unable to carry out their own independent foreign policy and doomed to be on someone's side. So, it's pretty logical they choose the strongest side. (Sorry Saras) |
Do you think that maybe, it could come from a very bad experience with the Russian domination, and their attempt to be protected from ever being dominated by Russia again? Or is this possibility outright impossible?
quote:
Or perhaps your media was quite favourable to Putin when he first came to power, because they though he is the heir of Yeltsin who will continue to screw-up Russia? |
We saw his style when he was prime minister, and our media immediately noticed the difference.
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With such oil prices embargos are out of the question. You do not have that luxury anymore (like you ever had). You need Russian gas and oil (not that we don't need your money you pay for it, but you really can't put embargo on us, at least now). |
But do you think we even mused at the thought? That our deciders wondered, during sołe international summit: "how could we isolate Russia some more, now that they have lost their superpower status?"
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
If you think the EU hates Russia because we oppose the way you handle Chechnya, then the EU also hates the US for its behaviour in iraq, it hates Israel for its behaviour in Palestine, it hates China for its behaviour in Tibet, it hates Sudan for its behaviour in Darfur etc, it hates Turkey for its behaviour in Armenia etc...
?" |
I cant let that pass unchallenged. Israels behavior in Palestine is NOT comparable to Russian behavior in Chechnya. I would suggest you compare tactics, casualties, degrees of destruction etc between Israelis in Jenin and Russians in Grozhny. Israels record is far from perfect, but the above comparison is misleading. (russians would say that theyre excused, cause they are sovereign in Chechnya, not occupiers IE an international law defense, NOT a defense of their actual human rights record)
And of course the Sudan and Armenia examples are cases of alleged genocide, on a large scale. Not comparable to Chechnya, and certainly not to Iraq (where the US overthrew a genocidal regime) or to Israel.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
And of course the Sudan and Armenia examples are cases of alleged genocide, on a large scale. Not comparable to Chechnya, and certainly not to Iraq (where the US overthrew a genocidal regime) or to Israel. |
What is comparable is not what actually happened. The comparable thing is the EU's criticisms about it. We criticize pretty much every country on this planet (including our own, of course). We criticize Russia, the US, Israel, China, Sudan, Turkey etc. If media attention was brought on Colombia or Indonesia, we'd criticize them just as much.
Yet, does it mean we hate all of you guys? Does it mean we are obsessed with each and every country on the list? Does it mean our foreign policy only aims at undermining you (each individual country on the list)?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Actually we did encourage civilians to leave Fallujah, and almost all did. |
Yeah, right you gave them exactly three days to leave the city. It's more than enough. Not to mention that male persons of age 15-55 were not allowed to leave it.
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In the assault our troops STILL went house to house, and did NOT level the city. |
I think you need some photos. US used cluster bombs, artllery, missiles, rockets and all available firepower to crush the uprising. Al-Fullujah laid in ruins now. If you need pic, just whistle. It looks a thousand times worse than Grozny looks now.
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Perhaps Russians in Grozhny did not do so either. |
Perhaps they did.
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Fallujah has been covered extensivly by embedded reporters, who have given detailed reports on US marince actions including reporting an instance where a Marine shot a terrorist who was wounded and apparently not resisting. It caused quite a stir over here. |
Oh really? Why members of Red Cross weren't allowed to be there then?
I can't recall any Russian reporter broadcasting from Al-Fallujah, despite there are dozens of them in Iraq.
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Have reporters accompanied Russian troops in Chechnya? |
Of course they did. We have seen reports from there live in every TV news, everyday , every hour.
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Have Russian troops been held to such standards, not to kill a wounded (but not surrendered) terrorist? |
Of course.
But I'm not aware of any single case of such behavior of Russian troops. I'm talking about well documented evidences (like that tape for example), not about fairytales of those freedom fighters or their cheap fakes you westerners like to buy.
Last edited by Serb on 18-12-2004 at 00:26
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
oddly, when Latvia applied to the EU, THIS is what ethnic Russians chose to protest.
"RIGA, , May. 1 (UPI) -- While Latvia formally joined the European Union Saturday, ethnic Russians in the country held a huge rally in defense of their language rights.
The ex-Soviet nation along with nine other states joined the EU Saturday. But at least 20,000 protestors marched peacefully through Riga to protest a law curbing the use of Russian in education, the BBC reported.
Under an EU law, all schools must teach mainly in Latvian.
Russian speakers make up almost a third of Latvia's population, and less than half of them have been given citizenship.
The demonstrators, many bused into the capital, sang the anthem of the Russian-language movement, a version of Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall."
The demonstration centered at the Soviet-era Victory Monument, which commemorates the defeat of Nazi Germany. Many Latvians see the monument as a symbol of the beginning of Soviet oppression."
Had we intervened in FRY in defense of Albanian language rights, we would have had to go in years before we did. However we did not. |
I've meant something different. IIRC, Albanians in Kosovo (after your bombing campaign) declared authonomy (in fact their own independent state which regulary kills and expells few remaning Serbs). They did the same in Macedonia, despite they are about less than 10 or so % of population there, Albanian language was recognized as the second state language there and there were some legislation changes. Russian minorities in Latvia and Estonia represents much greater % of population than Albanian minority in Macedonia, but who in EU cares about that? They are Orthodox and Russians, not their beloved Albanian Muslims, so they don't have any rights at all, they are crap.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
This is actually very similar to Russian tactics in Groznyi actually. The Russians had grave losses because of snipers, and the city was mostly levelled with land-based artillery rather than air power. |
Grozny was destroyed during first war. Russians, thanks to arrogance of our high command (I meant Yeltsin of course and his minister of defense Grachev) thought they could wipe out arses of those militias within few days and brought as twice as less personel to storm the Grozny than the force of militants who defended it. Russians were outnumbered at least 2:1 and were taken heavy losses, because those militias were pretty well prepared for urban warfare they turned every building there into a small fortress, prepared huge ammo and weapons stockpiles and made huge undeground communications. They were ready, plus they knew the city as no one else. The only retalation to this was heavy use of Russian firepower. Russian troops could took Grozny few times, but everytime highest leadership (read Yeltsin and his gang) made order to stop which allow enemy to regroup and regain its strenght.
During second war things were way different.
Russians are swift learners.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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Sorry, it doesn't work.
quote:
They are treated as second-grade citizens (actually, as no citizens at all, since most of them have no nationality), but the EU does care. |
Just a little correction here.
I've said a second-grade humans, a not-second-grade citizens. A second-grade ghumans means that most of them do not have citizenship and their basic human rights constantly violated.
quote:
Latvia is the country where the problem is the worst. At the independence, Latvia only gave nationality to those who were there before 1945, and their offspring. Meaning that only about half of the population had the Latvian nationality.
There have been two waves of naturalization for the Russian minority, and now half of that minority has the Latvian nationality. The Russians of Latvia have the EU to thank for that, given that the local Latvian authorities hate the "invaders". And the EU demands more, and are now backed by the second party of Latvia, a Russophone party.
As soon as Estonia candidated for the EU membership in 1995, it was required to integrate its Russophone citizens. The integration is vastly insufficient, but at least, the Russophones devoid of Estonian nationality can vote in local government. And it has been noticed they now vote more on ideological than on ethnical reasons, which is an encouraging sign that integration progresses. Again, these progresses mostly stem from the EU, although Estonia doesn't seem as hostile as Latvia. |
quote:
Your claim made me curious, and I googled about the situation of the Russian minority in these countries. After all, given their poor treatment wrt civic rights, that could be possible.
I haven't found even one source that confirms what you are saying, including on websites that defend the rights of minorities. Could you please give me sources of that? |
All you have to do is type in google something like "emigration from Latvia or Estonia".
A couple of interesting articles here. Those articles doesn't describe how Latvian police throw oot Russians from thier homes, no such details there, only numbers and facts:
"Population decline in Latvia between 1991 and 1998 was more than 8% and over 7% in Estonia. Most of this was emigration to the former CIS. Despite a slow-down of the population decline in the late 1990s (with decreasing emigration), natural population decline continues to be high - approx. 15,000 persons annually in Latvia and between 6,000-7,000 in Estonia."
Guess who were all those people who emigrated from Latvia and Estonia to CIS and why they had to?
http://vasab.leontief.net/background/part1_1_3.htm
More news about this democratic country:
http://hrlibrary.ngo.ru/hrcommittee/latvia1995.html
Had Russians commited something like that towards their national minorities you would ring in all bells calling Russia fascist dictatorship.
If you need the exact exaples how their police expell Russian minorities, throw them out of thier homes to detention camps, I'll try to find some heartbreaking stories.
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It is the very same reason why our public opinion opposed the war in Iraq. Because we oppose the conditions which lead to such terrible destruction. Because we oppose the heavy-handling of such a situation.
|
Well, your humanism didn't stop you when you bombed Serbia and killed thousands people. looks like you have double standards for people who deserve human treatment and who doesn't.
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If you think the EU hates Russia because we oppose the way you handle Chechnya, then the EU also hates the US for its behaviour in iraq, it hates Israel for its behaviour in Palestine, it hates China for its behaviour in Tibet, it hates Sudan for its behaviour in Darfur etc, it hates Turkey for its behaviour in Armenia etc...
Do you really think we hate all those countries? |
Thanks for comparing Russians in Chechnya with Turkey in Armenia. Next you'll compare Putin's Russia with Hitler's Germany.
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Do you think that maybe, it could come from a very bad experience with the Russian domination, and their attempt to be protected from ever being dominated by Russia again? Or is this possibility outright impossible? |
My point is - now they want to be dominated by Uncle Sam, becase he is stronger. Simple as that.
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We saw his style when he was prime minister, and our media immediately noticed the difference. |
Sure, and immediately started its anti-Putin campaign.
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But do you think we even mused at the thought? That our deciders wondered, during sołe international summit: "how could we isolate Russia some more, now that they have lost their superpower status?" |
That's a long story. You don't need Russia isolated, you need it to be part of global economy (to rob it of course). Don't have time for that.
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17-12-2004 17:45
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