18-12-2004 02:24									#721
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark oh. The citizenship issue is complex, as there have been ethnic Russians SETTLED in the Baltics during the entire Soviet period to create FACTS ON THE GROUND. Since Russia is DEMOGRAPHICALLY strong, it was in Soviet times able to increase numbers to point where a SECULAR DEMOCRATIC STATE OF LATVIA was almost INFEASIBLE. All Latvia has asked is that the SETTLERS adopt the Latvian language and culture, in order to gain full citizenship and voting rights. Otherwise they may remain as residents, but without full citizenship. While this may not meet EU human rights standards, its more than understandable.

Double ****ing standards.

	18-12-2004 02:42									#722
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Serb Double ****ing standards.

Obviously someones missing the sarcasm implied in the capitalized words. Somebody help Serb out, huh?

	19-12-2004 08:19									#723
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Who wants a new avatar?

Serb?

Attachment: yushchenko.jpg
This has been downloaded 88 time(s).

	19-12-2004 11:17									#724
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

i agree - Latvia for Latvians. Finland for Finns. Russia for everyone and their brothers. :doitnow:

	20-12-2004 13:53									#725
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Serb 2) Perhaps for Hungrians you have one standard, but for Russians you have another. Russians in Latvia and Estonia are treated as second-grade humans, and nobody cares a **** about that in EU. Russians in Latvia and Estonia ARE SYSTEMATICALLY thrown out of their homes by TENS of thousands and systematically brutalized by the police. Their government doesn't slughter them openly, but still they have a discriminating policy of expelling towards them.

I call for investigation by MIT (massachusets institute for tauroscatology). Serb, you really expect people to believe this crap? Or is this what you read in your "free" press?

Seriously, link, please (and none of those funny personal pages of PanSlavist reactionaries that you once posted - the guy asserted that Lithuania willingly joined USSR in 1940 )

quote: Why, oh, why? Because they are... ready to sell their land to those who are ready to buy.

If you're sincere posting this, you, sir, are an idiot.

quote: They are unable to carry out their own independent foreign policy and doomed to be on someone's side. So, it's pretty logical they choose the strongest side. (Sorry Saras)

You are right in a sense that we need allies to ensure our security (the threat to which historically comes from the east...) We chose an alliance of free, wealthy, liberal & democratic nations as a couterweight to the unstable, corrupt and expansionist Russia (with the blood of our fathers and grandfathers on its hands.. and to add insult to injury, denying this fact). VERY EASY CHOICE IF YOU ASK ME!

	27-12-2004 19:15									#726
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Opposition leader claims victory in Ukraine By Stefan Wagstyl in Kiev and Tom Warner in Kharkiv Published: December 26 2004 15:01 | Last updated: December 27 2004 13:15 Opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko declared victory on Monday in the rerun of Ukraine’s disputed presidential election, following weeks of political turmoil and international tensions between Russia and the west. According to the Central Election Commission, with more than 98 per cent of Sunday’s ballot counted, Mr Yushchenko had an unassailable lead with almost 52 per cent of the votes against just under 44 per cent for Viktor Yanukovich, the Moscow-backed prime minister. “I want to say this is a victory of the Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian nation. We were independent for 14 years. Today we became free,” Yushchenko was quoted by Reuters as saying in his headquarters in the capital Kiev. “Today, in Ukraine, a new political year has begun. This is the beginning of a new epoch, the beginning of a new great democracy.” Ukraine in crisis Read more FT news and analysis of the confrontation over the future of Ukraine.Go there Mr Yushchenko, a former central banker and prime minister, is expected, if he wins, to improve ties with the west. He also wants to encourage the investigation of political wrong-doing, including his own poisoning, which left him disfigured. The country was thrown into crisis after the November 21 poll, when Mr Yushchenko claimed he had been cheated and called his supporters on to the streets in the so-called Orange Revolution. The government backed down in the face of the biggest display of popular protest in the former Soviet Union. Ukraine's Supreme Court ordered an election re-run and Leonid Kuchma, the outgoing president, agreed to wide-ranging political and legal changes which greatly reduced the scope for fraud and the authorities’ power to intervene in the polls. Having earlier backed Mr Yanukovich, Mr Kuchma distanced himself from the prime minister, robbing Mr Yanukovich of the coordinated support he had previously enjoyed from the bureaucracy. Mr Yanukovich, who was backed by Russia in previous rounds, hit back saying he had been cheated by the Supreme Court and a coup by foreign powers: a thinly-disguised reference to the west. About 12,000 foreign observers and many thousand Ukrainians monitored the poll. Early reports indicated it was free of the centrally organised fraud which marred the last vote, although there were sporadic claims of local cheating by both camps. Laws passed since the last vote have largely restricted absentee ballots, a major source of abuse. Despite the reduction in fraudulent votes, turnout on Sunday remained high at 78 per cent, down from 81 per cent.

	27-12-2004 19:18									#727
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The Ukraineans made the right choice.

	27-12-2004 20:33									#728
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Looks good, and it seems Yushchenko also won by a large margin. However, I guess we still have to wait a couple of days so that they can recount and sort out any claims of cheating.

	27-12-2004 21:52									#729
	Put an end to popups!

The third round of the election was not only illegal, but also not free. How can it be free if one of the candidates had been publically humiliated before the vote, if the West let the Ukrainians know that their country would join the rogue states should they vote the wrong way. No wonder, many of the original Yanukovich supporters now voted for Yushchenko.

Congratulations, you won. Just don't pretend this has anything to do with democracy or with the rule of law.

	27-12-2004 22:07									#730
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Since when is it undemocratic to publically humiliate candidates?

	27-12-2004 22:50									#731
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Perhaps `humiliated' was not the word. I should have said `degraded' or even `destroyed'.

	27-12-2004 23:03									#732
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond The third round of the election was not only illegal, but also not free. How can it be free if one of the candidates had been publically humiliated before the vote, if the West let the Ukrainians know that their country would join the rogue states should they vote the wrong way.

Except the West did no such thing.

	27-12-2004 23:05									#733
	Full PM-box? Change here!

From Hillary's article:

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/4101841a-5...000e2511c8.html

quote: As the ballots are being counted in Ukraine, the US and Europe need to continue to deliver a consistent message to all parties and candidates in Ukraine, and to the people of Ukraine, that respect for democracy and the rule of law is a central factor in determining the future relationship with the west.

Respect for democracy and the rule of law, my ass.

quote: Over the next hours and days, we will hear the judgments of the international observers of the Ukrainain election. If they once again find widespread electoral irregularities and fraud, the US and Europe should once again refuse to recognise the legitimacy of the election and stand with those Ukrainians who are seeking true democracy and the rule of law.

... that is, if our candidate again loses, the US and Europe should once again stage the coup. Very nice.

quote: The US and Europe should also consider visa bans and other targeted sanctions on those responsible for encouraging or participating in any efforts improperly to influence the outcome of the election.

Definitely! Visa bans is the most effective way to influence the elites. Hillary just forgot to mention that the whole country should be turned into a rogue state as a punishment.

quote: However if, as is hoped, there is a consensus that the election has been free and fair, ...

.. i.e. if our candidate wins...

quote: ...the US response to the result will be critical to the US-Ukraine relationship. After a free and fair election in Ukraine, the US should immediately explore the willingness of the new Ukrainian government to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (Nato).

This is the point! This is what all the fight for 'democracy and the rule of law' is about!! Hurrah!

	27-12-2004 23:09									#734
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Except the West did no such thing.

Permit me to respectfully disagree, sir.

	27-12-2004 23:12									#735
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yukoshenko won a substantial majority. AFAICT no one changed their votes - thats exactly the majority he WOULD have won in the previous election, had it been fair.

	27-12-2004 23:19									#736
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Yukoshenko won a substantial majority. AFAICT no one changed their votes - thats exactly the majority he WOULD have won in the previous election, had it been fair.

Oh, don't you understand, LOTM? The Ukrainians voted under the influence. It was not a free election!

	27-12-2004 23:32									#737
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Why isn't this thread locked?

	27-12-2004 23:35									#738
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond The third round of the election was not only illegal, but also not free. How can it be free if one of the candidates had been publically humiliated before the vote, if the West let the Ukrainians know that their country would join the rogue states should they vote the wrong way. No wonder, many of the original Yanukovich supporters now voted for Yushchenko. Congratulations, you won. Just don't pretend this has anything to do with democracy or with the rule of law.

Funny how 20,000 election monitors say otherwise. You sir are foolish beyond proportions. The third election was not only fair, it was a great success. Yanukovich broke the law by promoting illegal activities in the last vote, which allowed the illegal counting of several million invalid votes. The one candidate that was publically humiliated before the vote was Yushchenko. He was poisoned and his face was disfigured. Most likely the Russians did it. Your views contradict democracy and your leader has been in violation of it. Maybe you Russians should take a moment of self reflection on the massacres you are committing in Chechnya. I at one point supported it until I heard stories about the massacres committed. And these aren't isolated cases, these are widespread. So please before you talk about democracy and the rule of law, have some self reflection.

	27-12-2004 23:36									#739
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

the mods arent sure how many posts are in it. Some folks called for a recount, and ......

	27-12-2004 23:37									#740
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Oh, don't you understand, LOTM? The Ukrainians voted under the influence.

Everyone votes under the influence. Stop acting like this is special. Politics doesn't exist in a vaccuum.

	27-12-2004 23:37									#741
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Oh, don't you understand, LOTM? The Ukrainians voted under the influence. It was not a free election!

If you are talking about the second election you are right. The Ukraineans were coercied by the Russians. In this election, that coercion was removed when your leader, Putin, just shut his mouth.

	27-12-2004 23:38									#742
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ukrainians should be congratulated. Now they'll be ruled by the husband of a State Department employee. Directives from the State Department can now be transmitted when in bed, right when man is most receptive.

	27-12-2004 23:38									#743
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Everyone votes under the influence. Stop acting like this is special. Politics doesn't exist in a vaccuum.

Or under influence. Is vagabond aware that "under the influence" in english (or at least in American English) means under the influence of alcohol?

	27-12-2004 23:40									#744
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Ukrainians should be congratulated. Now they'll be ruled by the husband of a State Department employee. Directives from the State Department can now be transmitted when in bed, right when man is most perceptive.

a former employee, IIUC, and not one of any high level of influence. As someone whos worked with state department employees, including ones in the sections that maintain equipment, store diplomats belongings while overseas, etc, I can tell you State Dept employee doesnt necessarily = decisionmaker.

	27-12-2004 23:41									#745
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Ukrainians should be congratulated. Now they'll be ruled by the husband of a State Department employee. Directives from the State Department can now be transmitted when in bed, right when man is most perceptive.

That's better then being ruled directly by Moscow, by a man who has Soviet styled economic beliefs. Yanukovich represents the corruption, and represents Kuchma. Kuchma was better gone. You need to grow up and learn that your country cannot direct other countries anymore.

	27-12-2004 23:47									#746
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The attitude towards Ukraine improved substantially after all this mess.
Anyway, I hope the result will be positive for Ukraine.
And I believe one more democratic neighbour is not bad for Russia either...

	27-12-2004 23:47									#747
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Saras I call for investigation by MIT (massachusets institute for tauroscatology). Serb, you really expect people to believe this crap? Or is this what you read in your "free" press? Seriously, link, please (and none of those funny personal pages of PanSlavist reactionaries that you once posted - the guy asserted that Lithuania willingly joined USSR in 1940 )

Keep your BS for Yankees or Euros. I know what's going on there. If everything is so perfect there, then how the hell can you explain Russian exodus from Baltic states. Hundreds of thousands are expelled from there. Russians that stayed are treated as crap- no citezenship, no basic human rights.

quote: If you're sincere posting this, you, sir, are an idiot.

**** you too.

quote: You are right in a sense that we need allies to ensure our security (the threat to which historically comes from the east...) We chose an alliance of free, wealthy, liberal & democratic nations as a couterweight to the unstable, corrupt and expansionist Russia (with the blood of our fathers and grandfathers on its hands.. and to add insult to injury, denying this fact). VERY EASY CHOICE IF YOU ASK ME!

Biatches, if you ask me. Allies means partners, it means both sides can benefit from cooperation. The west can offer security for you, what can you offer for the west except your body? You think NATO desperately needs your single motorized division to protect Berlin or London? They are ready to protect you, but they do nothing for free. So, what kind of "allies" you are talking about? 'Biatches' is the word.
Have a nice night.

	27-12-2004 23:52									#748
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Everyone votes under the influence. Stop acting like this is special. Politics doesn't exist in a vaccuum.

Well, one of the candidates publically demolished, another candidate commiting a coup before the vote, the people blackmailed by the most powerful block of foreign states... I would say that that was a special influence indeed.

	27-12-2004 23:52									#749
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Serb You think NATO desperately needs your single motorized division to protect Berlin or London? They are ready to protect you, but they do nothing for free. .

The Baltics already paid. After being betrayed in 1939, and having been invoked as captive nations for 40 years, the West couldnt very well turn them down for NATO membership.

	27-12-2004 23:54									#750
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You Russians should seriously shut up and self analyze your own country before you go attacking Ukraine and other baltic countries about democracy. You are far from a democratic state and in recent weeks, and days even, I have grown critical of Putin. His personally backed candidate in Ukraine had something to do with the poisoning of the opposition. I don't call poisoning people democratic. I suspect the Russian government had something to do with it. The west can offer extraordinary economic growth and jobs for Ukraine. Russia can offer nothing but economic stagnation.