24-11-2004 04:19									#151
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Some of us do, anyway.

By the way Guev, in this instance the local oligarchs support the Putin candidate.

	24-11-2004 04:27									#152
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I hope Ukranians will be able to truely gain independence from its bullying neighbour the Wannabe-USSR, Putins Russia.

	24-11-2004 04:30									#153
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Re #2, that's an idiotic charge. He was bringing in sophisticated energy capital and expertise, something that Russia desparately needs right now. Economic nationalism is ridiculous.

I know your consistent position on this matter and respect you for such consistency. You are right in what concerns capital and expertise. But one should attract these selectively, not to damage oneself in other respects. Russia recently sold an appreciable stake in an oil company to British Petroleum. However, that particular deal of Khodorkovsky was deemed unacceptable from the strategic point of view.

quote: Besides, all the Russian government had to do was block the sale, if it was worried about the national security implications.

I don't know the details. But apparently the international repercussions would be even worse in the course of action you suggest than they are now.

quote: You see, that's where it's all bullshit. The US has had regular elections for 400 years. It's not that our **** doesn't stink (there is fraud), but we know a rigged election when we see one.

There may be a huge difference between internal and external policies. The US is certainly an example to follow in what concerns the culture of elections (internal matter). But this means nothing for the matter we are discussing now, namely the election in Ukraine (external matter). I am convinced the West cries of fraud so loudly mainly because their candidate lost.

	24-11-2004 04:41									#154
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark If there was evidence of fraud on the part of Yuschenko, yes. Again, see Tunisia.

OK, I may agree with you that the West would expess its concern. BUT (one big 'but') that would be it! It would never accept any anti-Yuschenko revolution in such a case, whereas now it inspires a revolution against the present regime.

	24-11-2004 09:32									#155
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark great powers in their foreign affairs are not required to treat all alike, democracies in their internal affairs are, if they are to be considered democracies.

Ideally, yes. In real life no country does that. Those with connections to the rich and the powerful walk on water, while the rest, well, c'est la vie.

	24-11-2004 09:38									#156
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Well, it will be interesting to see how things play out in the Ukraine. I honestly think the only fair way to do this is to hold another elections as I don't see how results from an election so mired by fraud can be upheld.

	24-11-2004 09:39									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Oh, please, DanS.

Becareful of those skeletons in your own cupboard, DanS. They might fall out one of these days.

	24-11-2004 21:10									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Ideally, yes. In real life no country does that. Those with connections to the rich and the powerful walk on water, while the rest, well, c'est la vie.

Sure. Favoritism is one thing. Arresting the man who is the principle bankroller of the opposition for crimes that are commited by others who go free is another. The issue is NOT the unfairness to the arrested man (life is unfair, as you rightly point out) its the impact on the political opposition - it is claimed that the impact on the opposition in Russia was large. Perhaps it was not.

	24-11-2004 21:11									#159
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond OK, I may agree with you that the West would expess its concern. BUT (one big 'but') that would be it! It would never accept any anti-Yuschenko revolution in such a case, whereas now it inspires a revolution against the present regime.

Evidence that a single western state "inspired" this?

	24-11-2004 21:26									#160
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The final results will be announced today. Or maybe not... they were supposed to do it 3 hours ago.

	24-11-2004 21:34									#161
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This is weird.

Was it poison or just spoiled sushi?

VIENNA, Austria - As Ukraine's popular opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko claimed victory yesterday in hotly contested presidential elections, mystery continued to shroud an appearance-altering illness that twice prompted him to check into a Vienna hospital.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...tacodalogin=yes

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	24-11-2004 21:35									#162
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It looks to me like they are going to rerun the election. I think this is the right way to go.

	24-11-2004 21:39									#163
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Regarding the poisoning, before I saw the picture, I thought that it was a ridiculous claim by Yushchenko. But the picture comparison is pretty amazing. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

	24-11-2004 21:47									#164
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Smells like KGB/FSB to me...

	24-11-2004 22:01									#165
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It looks to me like they are going to rerun the election. I think this is the right way to go.

oh come on

being an american, don't say that after the 2000 elections for at least 100 years

	24-11-2004 23:05									#166
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Ukraine's election commission has declared Yanukovych the winner
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/e...aine/index.html

This doesn't seem to change much wrt to the demonstrators, though

	24-11-2004 23:24									#167
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And Powell says the US won't accept the results as valid.

Yay! A new international crisis

We simply did not have enough of them around

	24-11-2004 23:25									#168
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Wow

	24-11-2004 23:30									#169
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Well different instances are calling it not just a little fix but a massive fraud. Seems like no one is accepting the results, outside Ukraine either.

Let's hope no one has to bring military to the streets, no one gives reason for it and that no one answers with it.

	25-11-2004 00:03									#170
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And Powell says the US won't accept the results as valid. Yay! A new international crisis We simply did not have enough of them around

at least on this one the US seems to be aligned with the EU in our response. Id say it would be a bigger crisis (for us) if we undercut the EU position.

	25-11-2004 00:06									#171
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Its a pretty big crisis period-the question is, what does Leonid Kuchma do? and how long can these protests last?

	25-11-2004 00:07									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai This is weird. Was it poison or just spoiled sushi? VIENNA, Austria - As Ukraine's popular opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko claimed victory yesterday in hotly contested presidential elections, mystery continued to shroud an appearance-altering illness that twice prompted him to check into a Vienna hospital. http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...tacodalogin=yes

Every time I see that pic, I am shocked. What the **** did the KGB do to him?

	25-11-2004 00:20									#173
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Evidence that a single western state "inspired" this?

The tents that are used on the Independence Square are very sophisticated and expensive.

	25-11-2004 00:22									#174
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Its a pretty big crisis period-

Yup, it is looking like the West Ukrainians are having trouble keeping their compromise with East Ukrainians (to oversimplify) and with Russia on the question of Ukraines identity and future. A 'velvet divorce" would be almost impossible geographically, given the mixed population in Kiev, and Kievs historical importance in RUSSIAN identity. This could be VERY nasty.

	25-11-2004 00:23									#175
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond The tents that are used on the Independence Square are very sophisticated and expensive.

Good one vagabond.

	25-11-2004 00:25									#176
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Those sophisticated and expensive tents can be purchased by Soros without the involvement of any government. However, I wouldn't be surprised to find out the US is helping the opposition with training and infrastructure like cell phones, as we did in Serbia.

	25-11-2004 00:28									#177
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Oh SNAP! Looking at that pic.. man nothing can do that to you except chemicals.. that's poisoning right there.. how much time between these photos? Also what is this whole poisoning thing, we assume it's FSB, but why would they poison this cat?

	25-11-2004 00:29									#178
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This guy's great.

People Power!!!

Damn, that looks cold. :shiver:

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	25-11-2004 00:49									#179
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What is being implemented by the West is the classical algorithm of demonization, the target of which is now the Ukrainian election and the current Ukrainian government. Various western organisations and governments and the media cry in unison how undemocratic and dirty the election was, blah, blah. The public readily believes all this, and the circle of demonization is closed. Even the Ukrainians who voted for Yanukovich must now really be afraid that their country might become an international outcast, a rogue state. Perhaps, many of them would now agree to vote for Yushchenko if only to avoid such a sad prospect. For this reason, I strongly suspect that if a repeated election were held, Yushchenko would win. This is the glorious western democracy in action in application to third countries. Congratulations.

	25-11-2004 00:53									#180
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond What is being implemented by the West is the classical algorithm of demonization, the target of which is now the Ukrainian election and the current Ukrainian government. Various western organisations and governments and the media cry in unison how undemocratic and dirty the election was, blah, blah. The public readily believes all this, and the circle of demonization is closed. Even the Ukrainians who voted for Yanukovich must now really be afraid that their country might become an international outcast, a rogue state.

Who visited Ukraine during the election? Who endorsed a candidate? Its pretty obvious WHO has been pressuring Ukraine - and WHO is so angry that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have taken to the streets in defiance of that pressure.

But the vast conspiracy that includes everyone from Foxnews to the Guardian marches on. Right.