26-11-2004 08:25									#121
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They lurk and on occasion post here.

	26-11-2004 11:41									#122
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quote: btw, don't the Firaxis guys ever stop by Apolyton? They seem to only go to CFC, did they have some falling out with poly?

It's obvious there was a falling out.

	26-11-2004 11:51									#123
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To many people here at poly said Civ 3 was garbage before it was release. These guys spent 3 years making it and to have a lot people say that, I thing that pi$$ed them off.

I don't have a problem with Civ 3, PTW, or Conquest.

	26-11-2004 11:59									#124
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Polytubbies running their mouths off about something they know nothing about?

I have no idea what you are talking about

	26-11-2004 12:12									#125
	Put an end to popups!

If its anything people know about on these forums, its what things make a good civ game.

If Firaxis wants someone to tongue-maul their ass instead of give truthful and mostly constructive criticism theyre better off at CFC anyway.

	26-11-2004 12:46									#126
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Constructive criticism? Heh, you're funny.

Yes, some of that happens here, but far too often it is theads screaming about how the developers are each and every one an asswipe because they didn't do things the way the flamer KNOWS is the ONLY way to do them. I can't count the times I've seen members of the staff of Firaxis singled out and called idiots, or worse. The people who habitually did it are still able to post, and flame.

Not to mention that somewhere along the way, the administration and senior moderation of this site just sort of... lost interest. I know Mark played Civ3 and the expansions, but aside from him, who from this site that matters is involved? It's like the people who drive Poly don't care.

Given that, you would come here to talk about your job?

	26-11-2004 13:07									#127
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True, very true. But, I do have to say, we have a tremendous amount of talent on this site. The Civ2 forums are a prime example. If they want a great game they should take notice.

At CivFan it seems, beyond the Civ3 forums which have been pretty hot with unit creation, there are a lot of people with very little experience designing mods for the Civ games. Poly, for some reason, garners people who can take criticism, use it, and make their work better. At CivFan, well, I wouldn't say the reception is that open.

	26-11-2004 13:52									#128
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I agree. I prefer Poly for the open environment, and there is the irony.

However, for the sake of productive discussions with developers, I think Poly was a little too... lax in moderation, and I think that came from the people who matter not really paying attention.

The last time Civ3 had a real moderator was Yin. Yin got tossed. Mark and Ming did their best, but there was only so much of Mark and Ming to go around. A whole lot of feces went through the cracks. In the end the developers show the same interest in this site that the admins and moderators have shown for them. Very little.

	26-11-2004 15:09									#129
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Soren posts in the Civ4 forum.

	26-11-2004 15:20									#130
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The Civ3 forum under Yin would have been a scarey place. Possibly more so than it currently is.

	26-11-2004 16:23									#131
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Not that there's enough info to go on, but i'm guessing the 'rights to civilization' probably dont include SMAC. After all the use of the word civilization was what caused all the legal problems for Activision with their first Call To Power game, so it would follow these rights that have been bought would be fairly literal, which is a shame as SMAC needs updating too.

And IW, i'm guessing you just burned out on CTP2 modding?
My feeling is that the civ genre hasn't really had a proper succesfull remake since going from Civ1 to Civ2, and much of what made that so succesfull - and the potential for future games like it, hasn't really been given a sequel it needs to reach that potential.
CTP was a different kettle of fish but also didnt quite get it right.
Civ3 by all accounts was a smaller step than most people were generaly hoping for?

My main worry is that as 3D has stolen the show, it would be really hard to do a succesfull non-3D followup? And i think most people who are civ genre fans would realise the mistakes waiting(Empire Earth?) if you wanted to do a market acceptable update - it would be so hard to pull of a 3D civ!
And this is the problem, because whomever stumped up £15million euro's doesn't sound like a developer/publisher who is likely to buck market trends....unless it was Firaxis as they have a historic link to the series.

	26-11-2004 16:26									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns The Civ3 forum under Yin would have been a scarey place. Possibly more so than it currently is.

Very possibly, but at least there would have been someone paying attention (hopefully).

	26-11-2004 16:29									#133
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Incidently, I don't think the issue is that Yin was sacked. I think the issue is that he was not replaced. Or at least, that's part of it.

	26-11-2004 16:34									#134
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Or lies with the previously-mentioned fact that none of the staff besides Markos play Civ3. With him off to the military for a large number of months since the games release, the forums were largely unchecked.

	26-11-2004 16:36									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yep, but remember this is a big site. Mark has a lot to do, with or without the military obligation. Expecting him to have ridden herd of the flood of civ3 users (of which I am one) would be expecting failure. But that's what happened.

	26-11-2004 18:23									#136
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For the record, I didn't start ripping Civ 3 until after I played it for a week. I haven't played it since that first week, in fact I've played Civ 2 more than Civ 3 since it came out.

	26-11-2004 18:33									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander For the record, I didn't start ripping Civ 3 until after I played it for a week. I haven't played it since that first week, in fact I've played Civ 2 more than Civ 3 since it came out.

Civ3 has undergone considerable improvement since it came out. If you still have your Civ3 copy, you should look for some cheap copy of Conquests somewhere. Almost all features that make a good Civ-game are here, and the strategies are much more interesting than in Civ2 (the IA puts an actual challenge to unexperienced players).

I am one of those people who see Civ3 as a badly rushed product when it first came out, but thanks to excellent support, the game now has almost everything I expect from a Civ game

	26-11-2004 20:18									#138
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You mean they patched the game to include wonder movies and a better palace?

	26-11-2004 20:38									#139
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Certainly, because those are the defining factors in what makes a good game.

	26-11-2004 20:41									#140
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I've serious considered putting "If CivIV has wonder movies I won't buy it" in my signature.

	26-11-2004 20:45									#141
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If you're not going to have wonder movies, then put that extra effort into making a friendlier, more fun game. Civ 3 wasn't very friendly or fun. The graphics... ugh.

	26-11-2004 20:48									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I've serious considered putting "If CivIV has wonder movies I won't buy it" in my signature.

I'm sure as soon as you do that will be the first thing slammed on Sid's desk Monday morning.

	27-11-2004 00:29									#143
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The only way to make Civ4 a better sequel than Civ3 was would be to make it deeper and more complex, which ain't gonna happen. Well, maybe the editability will do it.

I really would like to have Wonder movies, but I don't care so much about the Palace, and definitely neither is a deciding factor for me.

I think I would say Civ3 was friendly.

	27-11-2004 07:09									#144
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: The only way to make Civ4 a better sequel than Civ3 was would be to make it deeper and more complex, which ain't gonna happen. Well, maybe the editability will do it.

Depth and complexity don't necessarily go hand in hand. Well, it depends on what you mean by "depth". Europa Universalis, for example, is a deeper simulation than Civ3, but I don't think it has a deeper gameplay. Chess is a lot more simple (the basic rules are a lot simpler) than both Europa Universalis and Civ, but its gameplay is twice as deep as both Europa and Civ. If I had to choose, I would choose gameplay over complexity. Say no to complexity for complexity's sake! Say no to realism for realism's sake!

	27-11-2004 07:15									#145
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There's too much on topic discussion for this thread to be here.

	27-11-2004 08:04									#146
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Yeah, really it belongs in the Civ4 forum because that's what it most directly affects. I just figured as long as the thread was here and the most active one on the subject, it was the best place for it.

	27-11-2004 08:29									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Civ3 has undergone considerable improvement since it came out. If you still have your Civ3 copy, you should look for some cheap copy of Conquests somewhere. Almost all features that make a good Civ-game are here, and the strategies are much more interesting than in Civ2 (the IA puts an actual challenge to unexperienced players). I am one of those people who see Civ3 as a badly rushed product when it first came out, but thanks to excellent support, the game now has almost everything I expect from a Civ game

Yes, the game was released far to early but it is now a nice game. It sucks you have to spend a total of $100 and wait two years to get the game you should have gotten for $49.95 but at least they eventually fixed it.

	29-11-2004 08:06									#148
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Not that there's enough info to go on, but i'm guessing the 'rights to civilization' probably dont include SMAC. After all the use of the word civilization was what caused all the legal problems for Activision with their first Call To Power game, so it would follow these rights that have been bought would be fairly literal, which is a shame as SMAC needs updating too.

SMAC rights are actually part of the Civ brand, although Colonization is not for some reason (this news story describes the sale to Firaxis most of the non-Civ Sid Meier properties; this is probably the best reason to hope that Firaxis might have bought the rest of the bunch as well.)

There is hope that Firaxis might have bought the rights basically as a short cash move, allowing Atari/Infogrames a little more cash now, and ultimately giving Firaxis a bit more creative control and a bit more of the profits, but not actually changing anything - Firaxis bought the rights to Pirates, but still published it with Atari, for example.

	29-11-2004 08:12									#149
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's too much on topic discussion for this thread to be here.

All general Civ and even Civ 4 news is posted in the OT, so I figured this is where the admins wanted it. Plus the thread gets more activity here. It's not like many OTers read the nearly-dead Civ 4 forum...

	29-11-2004 08:24									#150
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Constructive criticism? Heh, you're funny. Yes, some of that happens here, but far too often it is theads screaming about how the developers are each and every one an asswipe because they didn't do things the way the flamer KNOWS is the ONLY way to do them. I can't count the times I've seen members of the staff of Firaxis singled out and called idiots, or worse. The people who habitually did it are still able to post, and flame. Not to mention that somewhere along the way, the administration and senior moderation of this site just sort of... lost interest. I know Mark played Civ3 and the expansions, but aside from him, who from this site that matters is involved? It's like the people who drive Poly don't care. Given that, you would come here to talk about your job?

you have good points, but I still think its in the interests of their fans to post here. If they care about the people they make games for...