30-11-2004 17:15									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Alex I've heard that Osama Bin Laden bought the rights to the Civilization name. He intends to create a new Civ meant to be played only at the "Osama" difficulty level, where the Taleban civ starts with 300 suicide mujaheddins and wreaks havoc on the other Western civs. The game will be called "Civilization: I Don't Think So".

Alex, the first time I see a joke, it can be quite funny, such as when you postyed this the first time. The second time however...

	30-11-2004 17:18									#212
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Having tried CTP2 a month ago, to check out how it really is, I must say that the game was far from perfect, but the PW system was real nice. If only Firaxis could try to make an even better version of the PW system(I'm sure it's possible)...

	30-11-2004 17:23									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Mike is working on Pirates.

Fired, moved away to another game, I don't care. Not on cIV is what matters.

And, PLEASE STOP WITH THE PW DEBATING. Bah. This is definitely not the thread to do that in. There have been long and drawn out (and very well THOUGHT out) debates in the List and its associated threads - including one started by yours truly, do a search in the civ4 forums under my name - if you want to debate it. But it shouldn't be here, and especially not from SCRATCH ... sheesh.

	30-11-2004 19:36									#214
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quote: Having tried CTP2 a month ago, to check out how it really is, I must say that the game was far from perfect, but the PW system was real nice.

Never played CTP2. How did it work? No workers, I assume?

	30-11-2004 20:16									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Alex, the first time I see a joke, it can be quite funny, such as when you postyed this the first time. The second time however...

Well, there are lots more people viewing this thread than the other one, so I thought it would be nice to repost it here...

And I made Saras laugh, so it was worth it.

	30-11-2004 22:58									#216
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Could someone sum up all this thread for me, please?
I'm too lazy to go through it all

	30-11-2004 23:37									#217
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Summation:
Apolytoners love to spam.

	30-11-2004 23:49									#218
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Never played CTP2. How did it work? No workers, I assume?

No workers at all.

	01-12-2004 05:47									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Could someone sum up all this thread for me, please? I'm too lazy to go through it all

Atari/Infogrames sold the rights to Civilization to somebody, possibly Firaxis, but nobody knows for sure, because they won't tell us.

Also, a bunch of people seem insistent on arguing the PW/Workers argument here, making me fume but stay quiet because otherwise I'd get kicked pretty hard

	01-12-2004 05:48									#221
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Oh, and in the category of HUGE surprise, Poly people are a little over the top in the "spamming" category.

	01-12-2004 05:50									#222
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CtP2 was utter sh*te...you've not missed much...

	01-12-2004 07:00									#223
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quote: Never played CTP2. How did it work? No workers, I assume?

PW system in CtP: You don't have any workers at all. All the terrain improvements are managed by "Public Works" -points, which you get by altering your empires PW rate (sort of a tax rate, the higher it is, the less your cities produce actual units/stuff). You use the points to create terrain improvements, ie. NORMAL ROAD on a GRASSLAND takes 50 PW points, MINE on a MOUNTAIN takes 300 PWp's, FOOD BIOSPHERE on SPACE takes 400 PWp's, etc...

	01-12-2004 07:06									#224
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PW in CTP2 didn't work right for me. I wasn't able to place public works in areas that were in the fog or war (the foggy areas you can't "see"). The only way around this was to station units everywhere so I could "see" to build.

	01-12-2004 07:09									#225
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Fired, moved away to another game, I don't care. Not on cIV is what matters.

You might want to lighten up on the guy. I understand that modders took his comment about scripting hard, but in truth how was he going to introduce scripting during the patching process? Decisions like that tend to be made by people a little further up the ladder and at a somewhat earlier point in development, no?

FWIW, the guy did a lot to improve Civ and PtW after release. He was a very big part of the patching process for both, and he (and a few others) spent a lot of his own time on these boards looking for feedback on what could be improved.

In any event, this is a good example of what Skanky and I were discussing back a few pages. Take one comment made in passing during one chat, and call the guy down, personally, forever after. And you're being mild.

	01-12-2004 07:15									#226
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nye: FWIW I have no problems with Mike at all regarding his work on Civ3. I wasn't really expecting scripting in Civ3, and certainly not in a patch or even expansion for it. My only complaint is the one comment, which is somewhere between dismissive overexaggeration and blatant demostrable untruth.

quote: Originally posted by Dissident PW in CTP2 didn't work right for me. I wasn't able to place public works in areas that were in the fog or war (the foggy areas you can't "see"). The only way around this was to station units everywhere so I could "see" to build.

Since you can automatically see within your cities, the only time this should affect you is in fortress and road placement - where it makes sense. Even stationing units along every second tile of a road is better than stationing a settler on every tile of the road, surely?


Oh, and Python (not that I'll be getting Civ4 anyway mind you)

	01-12-2004 07:30									#227
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You might want to lighten up on the guy. I understand that modders took his comment about scripting hard, but in truth how was he going to introduce scripting during the patching process? Decisions like that tend to be made by people a little further up the ladder and at a somewhat earlier point in development, no? FWIW, the guy did a lot to improve Civ and PtW after release. He was a very big part of the patching process for both, and he (and a few others) spent a lot of his own time on these boards looking for feedback on what could be improved. In any event, this is a good example of what Skanky and I were discussing back a few pages. Take one comment made in passing during one chat, and call the guy down, personally, forever after. And you're being mild.

Eh, tbh I haven't much of an idea what's going on with the various programmer folks. If he made a comment like that, i'd rather he not be working on the game - but i'm not being personal. I don't think his parents are animals, or his ... personal habits appalling. I simply don't want someone working on Civ4 with the attitude that comment showed - and yes, imho one comment is all it takes to show attitude, even if it is carefully concealed attitude it's going to show in time in the programming style. Civ is a very moddable concept, and should be programmed with the very hardcore gamers in mind, at least in this way.

So I didn't mean any personal insult in that comment. I simply meant that I want people working on cIV who sympathize with modders.

	01-12-2004 07:30									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat nye: FWIW I have no problems with Mike at all regarding his work on Civ3. I wasn't really expecting scripting in Civ3, and certainly not in a patch or even expansion for it. My only complaint is the one comment, which is somewhere between dismissive overexaggeration and blatant demostrable untruth

I understand how you see that, Womby. I saw him say that in the chat and I thought to myself, oh dear. Maybe he regrets it by now too. Fact is he's human, and he either made a mistake, or he is in error from your POV (and that of many others) in one of his personal opinions. Somewhat like when Jeff... (can't remember the last name) made the 'love letters' comment to jimmytrick. Watching the reaction to that was a hoot.

	01-12-2004 07:38									#229
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Eh, tbh I haven't much of an idea what's going on with the various programmer folks. If he made a comment like that, i'd rather he not be working on the game - but i'm not being personal. I don't think his parents are animals, or his ... personal habits appalling. I simply don't want someone working on Civ4 with the attitude that comment showed - and yes, imho one comment is all it takes to show attitude, even if it is carefully concealed attitude it's going to show in time in the programming style. Civ is a very moddable concept, and should be programmed with the very hardcore gamers in mind, at least in this way. So I didn't mean any personal insult in that comment. I simply meant that I want people working on cIV who sympathize with modders.

And I want people working on civ who sympathise with players, and who show up in chat at 2am their time to see what some of the players have to say. And things like that. Oh, I also want an end to poverty and world peace.

Fact is we don't get to decide who works on the games we play.

Point is that we don't present a very developer freindly environment when we carry grudges over an off the cuff comment from a chat 3 years ago and calling individual members of the staff of the developer idiots, and worse (yes, much worse in the flame threads of the day).

And yet we wonder why Firaxians post at CFC a lot more than they do here... hmmmm...

	01-12-2004 07:58									#230
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And I want people working on civ who sympathise with players, and who show up in chat at 2am their time to see what some of the players have to say. And things like that. Oh, I also want an end to poverty and world peace. Fact is we don't get to decide who works on the games we play. Point is that we don't present a very developer freindly environment when we carry grudges over an off the cuff comment from a chat 3 years ago and calling individual members of the staff of the developer idiots, and worse (yes, much worse in the flame threads of the day). And yet we wonder why Firaxians post at CFC a lot more than they do here... hmmmm...

Very true. I was mostly pointing out that I didn't call him an idiot or worse.

	01-12-2004 10:37									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison CtP2 was utter sh*te...you've not missed much...

I strongly disagree, I'm playing both CTP Civ and CTP 2 right now and also playing Conquest now.

	01-12-2004 11:39									#232
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quote: Point is that we don't present a very developer freindly environment

Yes. And this is unfortunate.

There is a type of forum goer that is totaly impervious to criticism and insults, however I have yet to see one.

Community at Apolyton is too hostile to developers, I have to say that.

It is in an enviroment of praising and ass kissing that they trive best and you can get out of them the most tricks, tips, details...

Since I have observed people on Apolyton (long time members too!) that have written pages of bad reviews for Civ III without even playing it once (!!!), I think this can't happen of itself.

And as hostile I am to moderation as a principle... it may be sorely needed in this case.

	01-12-2004 21:13									#233
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I am vehemently against any attempt to moderate what is being said in these forums with regards to developers.

If one wants ass kissing, then there are other sites which are full of ass kissers.

Poly still has a small core of highly critical and intelligent posters, and this is necessary to stimulate discussion about a game.

Dissatisfaction should not be repressed.

	01-12-2004 21:15									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Alex Dissatisfaction should not be repressed.

And you're seeing the result.

It's not dissatisfaction that needs to be "repressed." There's quite a few comments that are critical of Firaxis over at CFC as well, but it's a whole different environment.

	01-12-2004 21:25									#235
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Trip: I've seen people making some harsh comments about Firaxis and its employees on CFC too. The difference is that these kind of comments are promptly repressed there. So the Firaxians feel more confident going there, they know that the police state is very effective.

I think that it is Poly's "insubordination" that makes Firaxians not so confident to post here on a regular basis.

And it's not like we haven't had any moderation either... I've seen Ming and rah warning posters for inappropriate comments and even banning some of them for insulting the developers.

	01-12-2004 21:28									#236
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Well, it's a privilege for the Firaxians to post somewhere, not a right, so I don't see why people think that they are "obligated" to post here and there. They can post where they want, and people should realize that.

	01-12-2004 21:50									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Well, it's a privilege for the Firaxians to post somewhere, not a right, so I don't see why people think that they are "obligated" to post here and there. They can post where they want, and people should realize that.

That's true, but Apolyton is as big a civ site as CFC is, and we have very talented modders and scenario designers here too. If I'm developing a civ game and I really care about input from players, then I would post both here and at CFC. But that's just my personal opinion, of course, and Firaxis is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

	02-12-2004 02:27									#238
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Atari/Infogrames sold the rights to Civilization to somebody, possibly Firaxis, but nobody knows for sure, because they won't tell us. Also, a bunch of people seem insistent on arguing the PW/Workers argument here, making me fume but stay quiet because otherwise I'd get kicked pretty hard

Thank You.
Is Fireaxis the thing behind EU, or am I wrong?

	02-12-2004 02:32									#239
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Paradox, not Firaxis.

	02-12-2004 03:19									#240
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Right! So, what do I know Firaxis for?