30-11-2004 01:03									#181
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I think it's fun to have a far- flung empire. Care to explain why there needs to be some penalty? Is it just because it's historically unrealistic? If you want to limit expansion, maybe limit the total number of settlers you can ever build or limit the distance Settlers can travel, or their lifespan.

	30-11-2004 01:06									#182
	Got spare money?

whoops: something else to respond to. I haven't played any of the MOO games and I don't think I will, it sounds like I wouldn't like the feel. This has nothing to do with the complexity.

	30-11-2004 01:09									#183
	Full PM-box? Change here!

There needs to be some penalty for having a far-flung empire partly to stop run-away civs, partly to maintain a modicum of realism - it's always been tricky to keep distant provinces firmly under control and contribute as much as they should to the central gov't.

I don't think that 95% in every city far enough from the capital is much fun either. But that could be solved by simply upping the minimum efficience (as they did in Conquests, altho it might be still too low).

As for limiting the number of settlers you can build, my spontaneous reaction is that I hate the idea. It would be a bizarre ad hoc rule, prevent resettlement of razed cities, and it breaks the philosophy of presenting the player with a strategic choice; do I continue expansion despite the diminishing returns? If the number of settlers were capped, there would be no choice.

	30-11-2004 01:17									#184
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo If you ask me (but you're not, so I'm saying it anyway ), its a basic problem with all Civ games. It has nothing to do with Firaxis: the culprit is the original Sid Meier design. You expand, you expand and you expand again, and you end up with a ton of cities and workers. In other words, you end up with micromanagement nightmare on your hands. Not fun. Not fun at all. That's why I rarely finish my Civ games. That said, Civ 3 has a lot less micromanagement than Civ 2. Or maybe you're talking about something else?

One of the beautiful things in SMAC is the ability to give cities away. This not only builds commerce, but keeps allies happy. But the greatest advantage is that it helps solve the micromanagement problem in the late game.

There are no caravans in SMAC. But commerce, which replaces it, is better.

Also, social engineering, which exists in rudimentary form in Civ and Civ II, is of major, major importance in SMAC. It makes the game, IMHO, "fun."

	30-11-2004 01:21									#185
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Corruption in SMAC is well balanced in that it mainly affects commerce, but not minerals. The effect on minerals in Civ III is just a bit unreal.

I also hated Civ III's prohibition on rushing secret projects. The race to build secret projects was one of the major adrenalin rushes of the earlier games.

	30-11-2004 01:23									#186
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Brent I think it's fun to have a far- flung empire. Care to explain why there needs to be some penalty? Is it just because it's historically unrealistic? If you want to limit expansion, maybe limit the total number of settlers you can ever build or limit the distance Settlers can travel, or their lifespan.

The biggest issue is game balance and differing playstyles. If players want to create a small but powerful state like Japan or Germany, they can't do it, because land is everything. You're basically forcing the player to expand to get stronger. Not good for realism reasons, as you said, but also because it forces players into a single way of playing the game.

	30-11-2004 01:42									#187
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hee hee, I played SMAC but never really did social engineering much.

I want to be able to finish wonders while I'm still in ancient times by rushing, and use money, not kill my citizens. And I want to be able to without having to get a Great Leader.

Is there no way to have a huge empire without much corruption but still allow small empires to be successful? Maybe give small empires some particular advantages instead of disadvantaging large ones in any frustrating way?

	30-11-2004 01:51									#188
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I loved SMAC's social engineering.

I'd not mind if rushing wonders were banned althogether. Just buying them is stupid, and let's not start on building them instantly and for free with essentially random Great Leaders.

	30-11-2004 01:53									#189
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

make it so that usable population goes down as the empire grows in size

so in civ it goes
10k
30k
60k
...

instead have population / f(empire size)

so a small empire would have more usable population

make it so the problems are a fuction of population, not usuable population

so one 1m pop city would be a lot better than a empire of a 1m population

Jon Miller

	30-11-2004 02:58									#190
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Let's not discuss what Civ IV should have here. M'kay?

	30-11-2004 04:08									#191
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

What else should we spam about? The on-topic discussion has basically degenerated into "we'll just have to wait till further notice".

	30-11-2004 04:31									#192
	Tired of ads?

Yes, discussion is unacceptable! Silence is mandatory!

	30-11-2004 05:27									#193
	Put an end to popups!

lol

Odd, isn't it, that nobody has said anything yet?

I wonder if it is indeed firaxis, and they're staying quiet so people keep talking about them for a few more days

	30-11-2004 05:54									#194
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Don't lose sight of the fact that it is a game, and it's aim is to be fun. Don't get too wrapped up in the 'historical simulation' aspect...

	30-11-2004 07:30									#195
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've heard that Osama Bin Laden bought the rights to the Civilization name. He intends to create a new Civ meant to be played only at the "Osama" difficulty level, where the Taleban civ starts with 300 suicide mujaheddins and wreaks havoc on the other Western civs. The game will be called "Civilization: I Don't Think So".

	30-11-2004 07:49									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Either way, Firaxis has announced great moddability, so even those who don't get exactly what they want in the vanilla game will be able to change things that they want, or play pre-made mods by others

Yeah, but they said that for Civ3 as well.
*cough*sig*cough*

	30-11-2004 08:26									#197
	Tired of ads?

Mike isn't working on Civ 4.

	30-11-2004 08:28									#198
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yeah, Civ 4 will supposedly have Python as a scripting language.

	30-11-2004 08:32									#199
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, this time, mr. wombat, they're using ...

gasp ...

A scriptable language (Apparently Breitkreutz got fired? (just kidding))

Python, actually, to write almost everything. Which means you can mod a lot. Not everything, but a heck of a lot more than Civ3.

	30-11-2004 08:33									#200
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Trip Mike isn't working on Civ 4.

Ahh, then I wasn't kidding after all.

	30-11-2004 08:42									#201
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Public works.

public works

	30-11-2004 10:54									#202
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Ahh, then I wasn't kidding after all.

Mike is working on Pirates.

	30-11-2004 10:56									#203
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Well, this time, mr. wombat, they're using ... gasp ... A scriptable language (Apparently Breitkreutz got fired? (just kidding)) Python, actually, to write almost everything. Which means you can mod a lot. Not everything, but a heck of a lot more than Civ3.

I would if they let you script in Python

	30-11-2004 11:01									#204
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It was announced there is going to be Python scripting back in February.

	30-11-2004 11:02									#205
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well, then I am

	30-11-2004 11:09									#206
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dissident public works

Hooray for public works!
Hooray for boobies!

	30-11-2004 12:25									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Alex I've heard that Osama Bin Laden bought the rights to the Civilization name. He intends to create a new Civ meant to be played only at the "Osama" difficulty level, where the Taleban civ starts with 300 suicide mujaheddins and wreaks havoc on the other Western civs. The game will be called "Civilization: I Don't Think So".

	30-11-2004 12:29									#208
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Problem with PW tax is it lays too much importance on production, in CtP1/2.

Make PW tax 3 seperate changeable taxes under food, production and commerce/trade to a total of 100% at any one time and itll be better balanced.

	30-11-2004 14:59									#209
	Inflate your Upload Space

PtW sucks big time!
You can automate workers in any way you want in cIIIv, but clicking on every tile to tell it what kinds of public works should be made on it really really really sucks.

Not to mention the fact that those cute workers who're busy working on your terrain gives a very very nice view.
Nothing is better then seeing people working hard for ya 8)

	30-11-2004 15:07									#210
	Put an end to popups!

Oh dear