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Theben
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Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
On a more serious note I treat my allies fairly. After my brief alliance with Theben I asked him how he wanted to proceed. I got no response, so naturally assumed the worst. |
Ah, yes but had I agreed to anything you were in an excellent position to betray me and could deny all knowledge of an agreement, knowing that no one would believe me or care, and would have essentially won the game at that point.
quote:
Lets just say given the choices I opted for him being more likely to honour an agreement then you were. Lesser of two evils I thought...and perhaps I was mistaken, maybe neither of you was likely to honour an agreement. |
Not at all... I was 100% completely loyal to the alliance until the conversation turned towards what to do after Spike was destroyed- that Spaced would retire gifting half of his bases to me and the other half to Sparrow. The 'joint win' option would have meant me in reality surrendering to Sparrow, being over 100 tons behind Sparrow in strength. While it is possible I might have opted for that, after doing some research on the Kazon and Trabe (I don't watch Star Trek much anymore) I decided that would never happen. The fleet sizes at the time would have meant a low chance of victory if we fought. Announcing my intentions to split from the alliance would've made them even less likely. Feeling betrayed myself, I hatched my plan. Anyone desiring to win would've done the same.
Had the enemy attacked your bases instead of mine, leaving me in the lead, or had you decided to again join forces with me, I would have remained loyal, since I would have been the more powerful of the two. 
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Sparrowhawk
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Canada CST
Apr 1999
time: 23:17
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And if we had elimated DrSpike and left the two of us, I would have been happy with either Spaced working with you to ensure that the fleets were even, and a winner take all or with Spaced retiring, gifting half of his bases to each of us, and having you and I decide the game either with me attacking you with an equal number of ships, or not attacking until you built up your fleet to ensure an equal attack. Either way the better OoB would have decided the game, the way you opted betrayed your alliance and instead of one enemy in a four player game gave you three enemies. I don't think you improved your chances of victory by betraying the alliance. I would have remained true to the alliance to the end (and I did repeatedly in this game even when it would have been more beneficial for me to go my own way......and that is my biggest mistake, and not one I am likely to make again, unless it is to benefit people who I know will remain loyal to the end of the game).
As for Spike, I will happily explain my strategy once the game is complete (and if Ljube appears anytime soon, that could be quite soon). I prefer not to until the game is over however.
* Sparrowhawk 
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Sparrowhawk
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Canada CST
Apr 1999
time: 23:17
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I hope Ljube will clear up the issue of the early game "sabateur" as I honestly don't know what happened and if it was intentional by someone or accidental by all of us.
As for my attacking with DrSpike, I think there are two important differences:
- DrSpike and I were not "allied" as you, Spaced, Geo and I were allied, we just united to eliminate a common enemy
- I agreed to send the majority of my fleet against you (and while just over 50% may not be much of a majority, it still is by any definition of the word I know  Deceptive perhaps as I was playing with words, but I didn't go against my word, which is a key point in my books). Actually I think I took a considerable risk in leaving half my fleet at home as if you had attacked me, they would have been destroyed leaving me in an even more vulnerable position....I did so on the assumption that destroyed ships would be removed in an equal ratio to the ships sent, and that this was one of my only chances to catch up with DrSpike once you were gone. It seems my assumption was wrong, and had I known this, I would have likely committed a much more considerable portion of my fleet (which would have been a moot point regardless, as while it may have saved 7 Titans for each of DrSpike and I, it would not have helped with my difficency in tonnage).
(my second way of catching up with DrSpike was the base split, but as he still outbuilds me, no matter how long I last in this game, I cannot catch up with him any more then I am now)
One last point is that in any of my earlier discussions with DrSpike, we tried to work out a base split and a number of ships to commit to it, and I had told him I would only commit the majority of my ships on the condition that he send a spy, and while he did send a spy this time, we did not discuss it, so I had no way of knowing that a spy was keeping you at home, necessitating the use of a defensive fleet (and I secretly hoped he would not use a spy, that you would attack DrSpike, and that both of you would be left with no self built bases, which would result in a good chance for me to catch up).
* Sparrowhawk who talks too much 
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Theben
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Dance Dance for the Revolution!
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
- DrSpike and I were not "allied" as you, Spaced, Geo and I were allied, we just united to eliminate a common enemy |
In reality there is no difference.
quote:
(my second way of catching up with DrSpike was the base split, but as he still outbuilds me, no matter how long I last in this game, I cannot catch up with him any more then I am now) |
Not true. FE, if he had 100 tonnes, and you had 50, and you both had 50 BP/turn builds you'd have:
2 : 1 1st turn
3 : 2 2nd turn
4 : 3 3rd, etc.
You'll never catch up but you'll improve your odds somewhat.
See, this is why you guys needed me. Can't plan worth crap. 
quote:
One last point is that in any of my earlier discussions with DrSpike, we tried to work out a base split and a number of ships to commit to it, and I had told him I would only commit the majority of my ships on the condition that he send a spy, and while he did send a spy this time, we did not discuss it, so I had no way of knowing that a spy was keeping you at home, necessitating the use of a defensive fleet (and I secretly hoped he would not use a spy, that you would attack DrSpike, and that both of you would be left with no self built bases, which would result in a good chance for me to catch up). |
I had launched my entire fleet against DrSpike, except one torp cruiser.
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Ljube
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Belgrade
May 2003
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparrowhawk
Okay, betrayed by Theben first and DrSpike second. I will have to remember that in future forum games 
Second question.....how are the destroyed ships distributed between the players in an allied attack?
DrSpike sent considerably more ships then I did (both because he had more to send and he sent a higher percentage of his fleet), yet we each lost 7 Titans (Fighter). So to clarify, in an allied attack where ships are the same size (in this case Titans) regardless of the proportion of the ships in the attack, the losses are distributed evenly? (or to use a more extreme example, if DrSpike had sent 50 Titans and I had sent 2, and we lost 4 ships, both of mine would have been destroyed and 2 of his?). While propotioning out the losses seems more difficult, it also seems more fair to me. Has this never come up in previous games? 
* Sparrowhawk |
The losses are distributed evenly among the allies, like the bases.
I remove ships starting with the ally who sent his orders first, so it is possible that the one who receives an extra base also takes a few points of extra damage or loses one ship more than his ally.
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Kassiopeia
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:17
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That was 33 hours. IMHO when it's just two people and the fate of the game is hanging in the balance, you *could* wait. But I'm not questioning Ljube's decision, since it *was* 33 hours.
Last edited by Kassiopeia on 23-12-2004 at 04:01
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20-12-2004 09:24
Lets just say given the choices I opted for him being more likely to honour an agreement then you were. Lesser of two evils I thought...and perhaps I was mistaken, maybe neither of you was likely to honour an agreement.
). We would have taken out your defenseless bases, you would have taken his, neither of you would have been able to build ships, not sure if we could have worked out an allied assault on Spike at that point or not, but it would have made for a different finish at least.
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