10-12-2004 22:59									#151
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e-mail sent. I'll try to get over that plan asap, CH, but let's first see what was posted in the mean time

DeepO

	10-12-2004 23:09									#152
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Maybe I am lost again, but did not MZ say they have held 36 tanks to land this turn and 8 chained? They only landed 16 of the tanks they had on ships.

Do they not have a settler that can make a town to allow transports to land those tanks and then move them? It is always dangerous for me to go from memory, so if I'm lost forgive me.

	10-12-2004 23:09									#153
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Second time through with 16 bombardments, using more Marines, "bombard" Infantry, and saving Tanks for last:

3 Tanks with 2 moves left
1 Tank with 1 move
4 Infantry

Lego had about 10 promotions they wouldn't have had.. some of the conscripts upgrading when a 2/4 wouldn't, and of course all the "elites" that upgraded.

	10-12-2004 23:12									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Defensive bombardment can be somewhat nullified by attacking with units which have less attack power. Losing an Infantry HP is going to hurt much less than losing a Tank HP. Also defensive bombardment can't do anything against a 1 HP unit. GoW should try to take all defensive bombardments possible with their Infantry I think. As DeepO says, best targets for the Infantry are the Elites. I'd include all Tanks too. A 2 HP Infantry should lose to the Tank, but Lego doesn't get a promotion generally unless the next unit that attacks the Tank loses too. So a 2 HP Infantry can almost be viewed as bombardment if the damaged units are finished off with Marines or Tanks. Tanks have Blitz, so they should be saved for 1 and 2 HP Infantry, which they can often kill 2 of even at low HPs themselves. I think using some basic rules for when to attack with what, GoW can still have better than even odds to take the city. I just ran through a scenario twice with preserve random seed off. Once with 26 Artillery, once with 17. As I'm using C3C the Artillery target the units first. The scenario is using very close to the same number of units (no 1/4 units, just Conscripts instead of 2/X or 1/X HP units, Regulars instead of 3/X HP units, Veterans instead of 4/5 HP units. Lego benefits from this because they get better promotion odds, which then count towards later battles, while GoW's promotions don't help at all except with the Tanks. The first time I got through with 12 Marines, 9 Infantry, and 1 Tank left available to attack. Second time I got through with 8 Marines, 1 Infantry left available to attack. I'll run it some more with 17 bombardments.

We most definately need to give this info to MZ. But I've got to take a break again, this damn game has still not given me breakfast, and it's nearing 7 pm...

DeepO

	10-12-2004 23:14									#155
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Maybe I am lost again, but did not MZ say they have held 36 tanks to land this turn and 8 chained? They only landed 16 of the tanks they had on ships. Do they not have a settler that can make a town to allow transports to land those tanks and then move them? It is always dangerous for me to go from memory, so if I'm lost forgive me.

vmxa, they have a settler. However, you can only found cities 2 tiles from an existing one. The beauty of Fort Stanwix, is that it blocks GoW from using their settler, for as long as it exists...

no city, no reinforcements either.

DeepO

	10-12-2004 23:16									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Second time through with 16 bombardments, using more Marines, "bombard" Infantry, and saving Tanks for last: 3 Tanks with 2 moves left 1 Tank with 1 move 4 Infantry Lego had about 10 promotions they wouldn't have had.. some of the conscripts upgrading when a 2/4 wouldn't, and of course all the "elites" that upgraded.

So all the marines died against the infs? strange.

What do you feel about the idea of saving the bombers against the tanks? It feels to me like it won't matter if these were all full hp units, but perhaps it differs with promotions and things like that.

DeepO

	10-12-2004 23:21									#157
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I'm just listing the units with attacks left DeepO. Not survivors. GoW has 20-30 more units that survive after attacking.

Another run through. Bad bombardment this time as Lego still had mostly 3 HP Infantry. 5 Marines made it through.

	10-12-2004 23:27									#158
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO We most definately need to give this info to MZ. DeepO

Done.

	10-12-2004 23:28									#159
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Ah, okay. Sorry, it should have been obvious at least 20 extra units should have survived, otherwise they couldn't have killed anything

Something else, which might be important: while minimizing the number of promotions, the other important thing is to maximize the hp use of those marines. After all, they are the best attackers, but can only be used once (tanks can be used again, if they survive or retreat). How did this went in your simulations?

DeepO

	10-12-2004 23:32									#160
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CH, I promise I won't go to sleep before I've got a finished report for them... also RP needs to be told. Their attack seems a bit strange right now, next thing we know, they're pillaging our land

DeepO

	10-12-2004 23:34									#161
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Actually, I've got a small idea on how to divide the land later on: let's give Dye fields to RP, and force them to give one dye to GoW, and to us, or face extinction. That way, neither of us is going to discuss how to keep it in our hands, while not given the other anything...

Rubber is obviously something we want. The rest, I don't care...

DeepO

	10-12-2004 23:40									#162
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I tried again, using the Marines at the end. 4 Marines left with movement.

I think the optimal approach is to bombard the 4/4 Infantry away. Attack the 4/5 Infantry with 2/4 Infantry to soak up defensive bombardments. Then attack the 4/4 Tanks once each with a 2/4 Infantry, then bombard them if they didn't get hit. This is to avoid a promotion. Stay with the same strategy on the 3/4 Infantry. If at any point an Elite Tank is showing, attack it with 2/4 Infantry.

Stop using 2/4 Infantry once the defensive bombardment has been gotten through. I'm using 11, so lets hope that's how it works. Start using the 4/4 Marines. This should get through most of the rest of the units. Use the Tanks to clean up low HP Inf and Tanks. Use what's left of the 2/4 Infantry to deal with the Cavalry.

So far in 4 runs I've gotten through each time even with Lego getting 5-10 HPs from promotions they won't get. I'm thinking the odds on this are pretty good given the number of attackers remaining even with Lego's extra HPs.

	10-12-2004 23:45									#163
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Actually, I've got a small idea on how to divide the land later on: let's give Dye fields to RP, and force them to give one dye to GoW, and to us, or face extinction. That way, neither of us is going to discuss how to keep it in our hands, while not given the other anything... Rubber is obviously something we want. The rest, I don't care... DeepO

I like that idea.

-Arrian

	10-12-2004 23:45									#164
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If this comes off with us getting the land we need, we at least want to have Lego's old capitol back in our hands or razed.

GoW should not get the wonders we captured, they have enough at home already. Let them raze it and plant another city.

This was a true joint effort. If they do not take the first counter attack we do not do what we did. If we did not capture those cities and hit the Fort, they would have no chance to do any thing this turn.

We must have the rubber and RP a new home, after that we would like to not see GoW get anything special. They can have the most land, but not the wonders and all the luxs.

Although I am not sure what we could do about it if they are not willing to deal.

	10-12-2004 23:52									#165
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Another run. This time everything was going great until the last Tank (1/2) was uncovered. I lost 3 Tanks and 6 Infantry to kill it.

2 Tanks and 2 Infantry left with movement.

	10-12-2004 23:58									#166
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Aeson: the difference between PtW and C3C artillery is quite serious, I think, since only 1/3 of the arty shots hit units in PtW (against cities). So try doing it with 1/3 of the number of arty (and turning lethal bombard off on bombers, as a precaution, but they still only target units 1/3 of the time in cities don't they). The difference is 18-19 hp or so I think, which is huge given how marginal this all is.

	11-12-2004 00:00									#167
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That's why I'm only using 16 bombardments total instead of the 26 Artillery + X Bombers.

	11-12-2004 00:02									#168
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Actually, I've got a small idea on how to divide the land later on: let's give Dye fields to RP, and force them to give one dye to GoW, and to us, or face extinction. That way, neither of us is going to discuss how to keep it in our hands, while not given the other anything... Rubber is obviously something we want. The rest, I don't care... DeepO

Nice idea on the Pink Stuff. As for the rest - I think we care about the Aluminium and Uranium.

	11-12-2004 00:10									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson That's why I'm only using 16 bombardments total instead of the 26 Artillery + X Bombers.

IIRC they have 26 artillery and 20 bombers, giving about 15 total bombard attacks vs units, but 6-7 of those are going to be with bombard strength 8 ROF 3 as opposed to bombard strength 12, ROF 2.

It's probably in the right ballpark, but why not just stick in 20 bombers, and stick with 9 arty? Or is it ust too much hassle to change it now you'reve got a scenario up and running?

	11-12-2004 00:12									#170
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defensive bombardment: I made a mistake earlier. Lego has either 29, or 13 arts... I somewhere said 27 or 11, but GoW is supposed to have 27 arts (even if I only counted 26, but it's easy to make a mistake in such a stack)

relocating RP might be worth it, however I'm not sure GoW is going to like that. If we do it, it has to come from 'our' part.

Legopolis: there is no way GoW can keep it! But they should realize this too: even with reinforcements, they don't have a good chance holding onto it. And we gave it to them for one purpose only: let them pass, and attack the rest of the cities.

But I'll try to make it clear to them later on.

DeepO

	11-12-2004 00:13									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Nice idea on the Pink Stuff. As for the rest - I think we care about the Aluminium and Uranium.

Hum... we do... but these are not visible yet. Besides, could we get lucky just once, and have a critical resource of our own?

DeepO

	11-12-2004 00:16									#172
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We have Coal, Oil, as much Iron as we can eat!

	11-12-2004 00:17									#173
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It's because I don't have PtW original installed, and there is no PtW editor with C3C's PtW.

I'm generally getting around the 17 HP that DeepO mentioned. The Artillery are basically the same as the Bombers because of the ROF difference.

Another run through, this time everything seemed to work out well. Got through all but one of the 3 HP Infantry, with 1 of the Infantry bombarded down to 1 HP. Lego only got a couple promotions total.

4 Tanks with 2 movement
10 Infantry
3 3/3 Marines

	11-12-2004 00:25									#174
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No failures in something like 8 tries is, while not conclusive, good enough to suggest that GoW are decent favourites to take the city, particularly since you're getting through with more than just 2 or 3 units left over.

Which either goes toshow that the combat calculator is bug ridden, or that picking the order of attacks really can make a huge difference to the odds, compared to the simple algorithm I use to pick the next attacks (basically attack strength times hp, much the the chosing a defender algorithm).

	11-12-2004 00:26									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus We have Coal, Oil, as much Iron as we can eat!

Coal is of no importance anymore, unless we want to build ironclads, or replace our free hydro plant with a coal plant. Iron was nice, but also already gone. Oil is important, I agree. And it stays like that. But we've got nearly half the worlds deserts, if we didn't have oil, it would be a total farce.

But the 2 most important ones in the past 1000 years, meaning rubber and saltpeter, we had none. And our terrain favoured it... if we don't secure our rubber source, we're going to get stuck with riflemen for the rest of this game. I can assure you, that rest won't take long.

DeepO

	11-12-2004 00:29									#176
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vulture, I think it's the last one that does it. Picking what unit to use next, gives the best results... and there is a difference here, in that we want to maximize chance of success, not the number or quality of survivors. In another game, you would try to get the tanks to blitz, in order for them to promote, for instance.

DeepO

	11-12-2004 00:34									#177
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I think it's because of choosing the proper attacker vulture. I don't know how your combat calculator figures the attack will go, but there are definitely good times to attack with certain units and bad times.

Losing 1 HP on a Tank to defensive bombardment for instance is basically losing 1 kill, sometimes 2. Whereas losing 1 HP on an Infantry to defensive bombardment is often not going to make any difference because the 2/2 Infantry don't do much damage.

Then the promotions are also very important. If Lego gets most of their units to Elite because damaged Infantry are attacking when they shouldn't be, then things become much more difficult. If the damaged Infantry are restricted to only attacking Tanks which haven't already been attacked or Elites which can't promote, it can avoid up to 20 HP of Lego units.

	11-12-2004 00:52									#178
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Those are very important considerations when you are attacking large stacks of mixed units. When and whom to use and when to bombard. Preventing free promotions is the goal after annihilation.

	11-12-2004 01:32									#179
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NYE, could you please readmit Arrian to the team? He booted himself by accident..

	11-12-2004 01:36									#180
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I wonder how many time this has happened to everyone here... I managed to avoid it, but only because I keep a link which I use

DeepO