22-12-2004 00:35									#1
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I've had in my head for a while now an idea to do a World War II Pacific scen. This theatre seems underrepresented in the community (I've seen or heard of about three or four scens on the topic), and even those that touch upon the subject seem slanted toward playing the Americans. It occurs to me that playing the Americans in a properly set-up Pacific scen would pose little challenge to an experienced Civ player. I therefore thought to make a Pacific scen where the intended player was Japan. This I believe would give a Red Front-style underdog situation where a lot of skill and strategy would be needed. Here's the initial set-up:

What you're up against
-A much more industrialized and well-trained US
-A better organized and equipped Commonwealth
-China, with legions of expendible troops and US support
-And, if you're unlucky and the AI doesn't like you, a USSR with enough spare Siberian troops from its German front to possibly mulch through Manchuria and Korea.

Your advantages
-Cheap (but not too terribly potent) Zero fighters
-More subs and carriers than anyone else at start
-Scattered island strongholds, making wiping you out arduous for the AI
-A Fundamentalist gov't (renamed Militarism), though with less free supported units

You begin at Pearl Harbor (no chance to change that mistake), and must survive till sometime in '48. Could anyone please contribute ideas, graphics, historical facts, or anything else that's useful? I need a bit of help going into this. Thanks!

	22-12-2004 01:37									#2
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The Zero should actually be high on attack, but low defence.

Then around mid-1942, the good USA fighters (Hellcat/P-38) with
'0' attack roles should begin to make themselves felt.

Also, the emphasis should be on cheap, but potent attacker Marines
and long-range, light bombers for the Japanese.

Don't forget to fling in some late-war fighters like the Ki-84 Hayate!

These things could have ruled the air, if they had the chance!

	22-12-2004 03:36									#3
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Start with an edge in quality for the Japanese, but severely limit their production. Program a progressive increase in production and quality for the Allies.

To mimic the Japanese war plan, you'd want to grab as much as possible at the outset, then hang on to it until the Allies exhaust themselves.

	22-12-2004 04:42									#4
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I have never felt the AI to be very good at naval invasions.

	22-12-2004 05:57									#5
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If you want to maximize the AI I suggest employing a map that makes island hopping the rule instead of an option. To do so, here are some tips:

1) The AI attacks the most costly unit in its area first.

2) The AI really sucks at using aircraft carriers.

3) Create a map that makes the AI attack each major island in succession, rather than have them spread out their forces.


I suggest creating a map that makes the AI focus not as much on sea power, but more on air power. As we saw in the Pacific Theatre the name of the game was to capture the islands that allowed American bombers to reach farther into the Japanese spear of influence. The taking of these islands reduced the reach of Japanese supply lines, provided airstrips for heavier bombers & fighters, and made it harder for the Japanese to operate in the area regardless of the Imperial Navy.

	22-12-2004 10:10									#6
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Thanks a lot guys, I've got a great start now. I do agree with Curt's idea on air units and Boco's on production; that sounds about right. Three questions, though:
1-@Harry Tuttle: How do I arrange the map to do that?
2-@anyone: Any ideas on events?
3-@anyone: Anyone know where I can find good graphics for this scen?
Thanks!

	22-12-2004 11:04									#7
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Here are some Japanese infantry you could use....

Dutch, British and Chinese coming up

EDIT: removed

Last edited by typhoon on 22-12-2004 at 21:21

	22-12-2004 11:04									#8
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Well basically it all boils down to unit movement points. Their has to be a nice path for the AI to follow when they attack so that they will island hop. I would make the various American bomber movement points just enough so that the planes can hit island #1 at the end of their range. Then after the Americans take island #1 they can finally hit island #2 and so on. At least this way the AI will focus on each island in succession, simulating a strategy of taking islands in succession.

Now the tricky part is getting the AI to attack each island with a landing force. Something that might work is to have a very costly "garrison" unit on each Japanese controlled island. The AI will want to attack this costly unit first and foremost. Perhaps this will facilitate a ground force.

As for events my suggestion to you is to not focus them on completely depicting the Pacific war. Maybe use the events to depict sneak attacks on island garrisons. Maybe have a few events where a landing force is created next to one of your Japanese controlled islands. The landing force could have "snuck through" and surprised the player.

	22-12-2004 11:50									#9
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@typhoon: Great units there! Look forward to more! Thanks a lot!
@Harry Tuttle: Could you create a good map (or know someone who could) with that kind of setup. I would want to include not only Japan, Hawaii, and those islands, but the mainland as far west as India and including parts of Siberia around Vladivostock, Blagoveshchensk, Nerchinsk, and even Irkutsk, as well as Australia, New Zealand, Alaska, and the Canadian and American West Coast. I also see the wisdom in your ideals on events.

My idea for players (and thus the flags I would need from you, Chris, if you please could), are the Japanese, of course, the US, Commonwealth, and China (all of whom would be locked in an alliance with each other and war with Japan), Thailand (who'd be locked in an alliance with Japan, but able to make peace with the Allies), the USSR (an unpredictable player), and the Neutrals (Dutch East Indies, Nepal, Bhutan, Mongolia, maybe someone I missed). If anyone has a better suggestion on working player slots, please let me know.

	22-12-2004 11:52									#10
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Oh, and I also plan Chinese Communists as localized barbarians to heckle Nationalist Chinese and mainland Japanese forces.

	22-12-2004 13:07									#11
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Here are the Allied Infantry in the Pacific- modified from fairline's stalwart units

From left to right:

First Row (East Indies/China): Dutch KNIL (East Indies Army), Royal Netherlands Marines, Chinese Nationalist Summer uniform, Chinese Nationalist Winter Uniform

Second Row (Malaya 1941): British Infantry, Australian Infantry, Indian Infantry, Gurkhas

Third Row (Burma 1942): British Infantry, British Infantry, Australian Infantry, USMC 1945

Attachment: ww2alliedinfantryfareast.gif
This has been downloaded 167 time(s).

Last edited by typhoon on 23-12-2004 at 21:41

	22-12-2004 13:09									#12
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Thanks a lot, Typhoon! You're a great help!

	22-12-2004 13:12									#13
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@Patine

Theres a map of the Pacific over at the Cradle of Civilization that matches your description...

	22-12-2004 13:15									#14
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Oh, and I'd suggest moving Thailand to the neutrals and giving the Dutch their own Civ

	22-12-2004 14:23									#15
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Patine ... I can & will come up with some more stuff for that one (heck, I once even concepted & partly designed such a scenario myself which I never released) than the map attached below!

Another thing for gameplay would be the America double-strategy, island hopping with Admiral Nimitz in the Western Pacific AND the larger 'land campaigns' in the South Western Pacific with MacArthur ...

More to come soon ...

Attachment: pacific theatre.zip
This has been downloaded 19 time(s).

	22-12-2004 14:48									#16
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Harlan Thompson did a reasonably good scenario on this topic. I'd recomend that you have a look at that for some ideas (and steal his kick-arse map while you're at it ).

	22-12-2004 14:59									#17
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Thanks, guys! Now I essentially have 3 maps to choose from, which is great! Anymore help of any kind would be greatly appreciated (especially names of Pacific island settlements at the time; I think many of their colonial names differ from their modern names).

	22-12-2004 15:07									#18
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Oh, and @typhoon, I do agree that the Dutch should be their own civ on reconsideration, but the Thai were a staunch Japanese ally. I think maybe, as Nepal, Bhutan, and Outer Mongolia (the three real neutrals) were essentially insignificant militarily compared to the beligerants, I'll just make their three capitals barbarian cities with immobile defenders (though that would lump them with my plans for the Communist Chinese, the barbarian slot is a good enough one for such things).

	22-12-2004 18:21									#19
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New version of the Japanese infantry. I think its a deprovement. Patine, up to you to choose.

Attachment: ww2japaneseinfantry.gif
This has been downloaded 219 time(s).

Last edited by typhoon on 22-12-2004 at 22:06

	22-12-2004 19:25									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks a lot, typhoon, but could I request a minor adjustment? I would like you to, if you could, adjust the shields of one or the other set so they have red rays coming out of the dot, like the Japanese war flag of the day (as opposed to their modern flag). If you could do this little touch-up, I'd be most obliged.

	22-12-2004 20:33									#21
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I have a rising sun shield on hand Patine. Why don't you give me a list of all the civ's and nationalities you want included in this game and I will provide you with the apropriate flagset.

	23-12-2004 00:21									#22
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I hope that you can find a way to include a couple of uniquely Japanese units, the suicide aircraft and the manned torpedo.

The rocket propelled suicide plane (christened Baka=stupid by the Americans who actually had little defense against it once it was launched) was a pretty effective weapon with a ton of explosives in the nose.

The Kaiten, an 18m long torpedo with a human pilot, had major teething problems but did work reasonably well if the mother sub managed to launch it. It's 40 knot speed and 1.5 ton warhead combined to make it a deadly weapon.

These should be introduced only if the war starts to go badly for the Japanese.

	23-12-2004 00:39									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

@Sarsstock: What I need is as follow:
-Japan
-USA
-Commonwealth
-China (Kuomintang)
-Thailand
-Dutch East Indies
-USSR
-Barbarians (a good flag to encompass Communist Chinese and the three above mentioned neutrals)

@AGRICOLA: Thanks for the unit note. I'll work to include them (I just need to think of a condition in the events.txt that will let the computer know the war's going bad for the Japanese and give them the advance that gives those units; either that, or say in the readme.txt 'research only if your losing').

	23-12-2004 14:04									#24
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Australia and New Zealand should be lumped in with the US and not British India. Historically, Australia and NZ co-operated extereamly closely with the US, and had very little to do with the British/Indian effort in the Pacific Theatre (for instance, the entire Australian Armed forces were put under the command of General McArthur from early 1945 until August 1945).

	23-12-2004 14:14									#25
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I concur. ANZAC troops provideded the bulk of Macarthur's forces during the Battle of New Guinea. Furthermore, Australia itself was the main US base in the Pacific during the early years of the war.

I would recommend lumping Australia and New Zealand with the USA (although Aussie units can also be built by the Commonwealth player to reflect the Australian prescence in Slim's XIV Army.

	23-12-2004 14:36									#26
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I see your point, and I think I agree. I'll then have a British/India player in place of a Commonwealth player, and the US player will command ANZAC. Perfect! Thanks a lot guys!

	23-12-2004 15:00									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Patine I would like you to, if you could, adjust the shields of one or the other set so they have red rays coming out of the dot, like the Japanese war flag of the day (as opposed to their modern flag).

As far as I'm aware, the flag with the rays was the flag of the Japanese navy. So if you're gonna use it, you should only use it for the Japanese naval units (whatever those might be)... That's about the only thing I know about all of this though, so don't ask me any further.

	23-12-2004 15:33									#28
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Thanks for your input, nonetheless, Mercator. I appreciate any help.

	23-12-2004 15:36									#29
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Well, if that's the case, cancel my request to have the Japanese infantry's shields changed, typhoon. They should do as they are. Thanks!

Now, does anyone know where to find good tanks, artillery, aircraft, and ships (and AGRICOLA's suggested units) in the same style?

	23-12-2004 16:47									#30
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Post a list of what you need and IŽll see what I can do for you