30-12-2004 09:56									#421
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Its not a troll at all. The problem pointed to is defined by the OECD as lack of policy coherence. This is where one government policy undermines or works against another. One example would be spending 177 million a day on the war in Iraq whilst offering only 10 million in aid to tidal wave survivors. Sumatra is a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism, perhaps the Afghanistan of tommorrow. Another would be Europe spending 9 times as much on agricultural subsidies as they spend on aid to developing countries whilst closing their markets to developing country agricultural exports. If you look at either case, its madness from an economic policy point of view. Nor, btw, is it in tune with conservative free market economic policy.

	30-12-2004 09:57									#422
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Will 1 billion be enough Ted?

1 billion would be a respectable amount considering the familes of 9/11 got 1 billion from the Red Cross fund that was setup for them.

But that was less than 3,000 people dying. Here we have 70,000, I can only imagine their needs would be alot higher.

I can only imagine how many people were injured, and have lost their businesses and homes.

	30-12-2004 09:59									#423
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander 20 million dollars were added to U.S. relief efforts today, most of it in the form of small pox infected blankets left over from the Indian Wars. In other news another 20 billion dollars has been added to the U.S. Assasination Agency budget to silence international dissent.

	30-12-2004 10:41									#424
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Hey you know what guys, maybe we should just focus on the fact that so much international aid is pouring into these devastated countries. We can sit here and bicker about who said what or what percentage of GDP goes to what, but all in all let's be thankful that this incredible distaster is being dealt with as best as it can. This is hell on earth folks. Let's hope the oncoming epidemics can be staved off and some semblance of humanity can be saved.

	30-12-2004 10:51									#425
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quote: quote: alva: Well, on the bright side, the world has lost several pedophiles the last couple of days. EF: Is there any way we can keep douchebags like this and VJ off the forums?

Ever been to Thailand?

I'm not to keen on getting compared with VJ btw, thank you very much.

quote: Actually, the pedos are mostly in Pattaya, which is on the other coast.

I know, but there are plenty in Phuket too.

	30-12-2004 10:57									#426
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quote: Originally posted by alva Ever been to Thailand?

No, though I'm sure if I had you would assign me with the label "pedophile" as you did with people you don't know who were killed in this horrible disaster.

quote: I'm not to keen on getting compared with VJ btw, thank you very much.

Then don't make asinine comments like he did.

	30-12-2004 11:09									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Not all tourists going in Thailand a pedophiles. Thailand can flaunt many other things to attract tourists than its red light districts. Besides, southern Thailand is not Bangkok. Tourism there is much more about beach resorts.

Look, I did not say every tourist is a pedophile, dammit.
I've been there twice myself, in fact, only a couple of years ago I was sitting on that very beach in Phuket drinking a cocktail with my girlfriend.

However, a lot of ( the single middleaged males ) tourists do visit those regions with that purpose in mind and I don't mean normal protitution.

	30-12-2004 11:15									#428
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JFK

	30-12-2004 11:29									#429
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quote: The only trolls in this thread are VJ, Alva and some Americans, you for example Shi Huangdi who were trolled back by people including myself.

quote: EF: No, though I'm sure if I had you would assign me with the label "pedophile" as you did with people you don't know who were killed in this horrible disaster.

One comment, I make one comment and now I'm a troll?

Where did I say all tourist are pedo's?
Where did I say I'm not touched by this catastrophe?

What I said is not untrue btw, however I will admit that maybe I shouldn't have made it.
---
On the subkect of trolls, this is a nice example:

quote: Nah, there werent many Belgian casualities. I guess you dont have to travel to Thailand. Hows your dungeon btw?

	30-12-2004 11:37									#430
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Well, you did say that now there are few less pedophiles when Rasb told abut the 14 dead Finns. How is that not trolling? What did you expect? Hysterical laughter at your witty comment?

	30-12-2004 11:52									#431
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One good thing to come out of this horrible tragedy is the war in Aceh has ended. The rebels declared a cease-fire and the government has ceased operations against them. They are being human together.

Unfortunately, in Sri Lanka, the disaster has only excerabted tentions, as the Tamils accuse the government of not adding the Tamil areas (which are mostly along the East coast, so a high percentage of Tamils were affected).

	30-12-2004 11:56									#432
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Well, you did say that now there are few less pedophiles when Rasb told abut the 14 dead Finns. How is that not trolling? What did you expect? Hysterical laughter at your witty comment?

I did not comment on the fact 14 Fins died, in fact, I was not even nation specific.
I commented on the fact that some pedo's died ( along with many, many innocents ).

	30-12-2004 12:18									#433
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From what I've read on line, India & Thailand seem to be the best equipped to handle the aftermath.

Northern Sumatra, as mentioned above, has had a civil war ongoing for about 20 years iirc and barely had the infrastructure to keep its population alive without the earthquake and tsunami. I suspect much of the aid that is earmarked for there will not reach those who need it.

Sri Lanka will also be a problem as about 1/3 of the effected area is in Tamil hands. There have already been reports of rescue/relief efforts being hampered by land mines displaced in the flooding.

One interesting thing I read tied in with a silly exchange a few pages back between AH & CG about Sumatra shifting to the US coast - the tide level in San Diego, California was about 1 foot (.3 M) higher then usual yesterday directly due to the earthquake & tsunami !

	30-12-2004 12:31									#434
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quote: Originally posted by alva I did not comment on the fact 14 Fins died, in fact, I was not even nation specific. I commented on the fact that some pedo's died ( along with many, many innocents ).

Alright then. If this was the case my harsh comment was unjustified. Sorry about it. However I'm not a mind reader, I dont think any of us are. The only input we get from you is what you type and what you typed lead me and apparantly many others to believe you were being an ass.

I always return favours bigger than I recieved them. But I return insults, trollings and hits too. Maybe I'm a jackass, but thats who I am.

	30-12-2004 12:35									#435
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There were a couple people from Jacksonville in the tsunamis. One guy speaks English, Thai, Japansese, and Spanish. He overslept that morning, and missed out on going to a location that got clobbered. The place where he was staying was on a hill, so he was okay. He saved a French tourist and is now acting as a translator for the Thai relief efforts. He says God put him where he needed to be to help people.

	30-12-2004 12:38									#436
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quote: Alright then.

--
Something else, I just saw some new footage. Here you could the waves coming in very clearly.
At some point several little kids were litteraly being swept off their feet and were in serious trouble, yet the guy kept filming. At what point exactly does one get rid of the camera and starting helping people, who in this case are near drowning?

Edit: It's the footage of Malaysia currently showing on BBC World

	30-12-2004 12:43									#437
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Svenska Dagbladet has made an estimation that the number of backpackers unaccounted for is at least as large as the number of missing charter tourist. That means at least 3000 Swedish citizens are still missing, 5 days after the event.

But in the backpackers' case, they might have contacted their families but not the government or travel agencies, so the hope is larger to find them alive. The 1400 missing charter tourist were known to live in the disaster area.

This is going to get bad. Every town will have people who died, and every school and large workplace will have people who were there. I've heard of two on my job so far, but there could be more.

	30-12-2004 13:16									#438
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Its not a troll at all. The problem pointed to is defined by the OECD as lack of policy coherence. This is where one government policy undermines or works against another. One example would be spending 177 million a day on the war in Iraq whilst offering only 10 million in aid to tidal wave survivors. Sumatra is a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism, perhaps the Afghanistan of tommorrow. Another would be Europe spending 9 times as much on agricultural subsidies as they spend on aid to developing countries whilst closing their markets to developing country agricultural exports. If you look at either case, its madness from an economic policy point of view. Nor, btw, is it in tune with conservative free market economic policy.

And yur on crack if you consider costs of occupation after a war to be an economic policy that could be changed on a whim.

	30-12-2004 13:19									#439
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There's a new thread for the quake politics.

	30-12-2004 13:24									#440
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You're a fine one to protest.

	30-12-2004 13:43									#441
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Its not a troll at all. The problem pointed to is defined by the OECD as lack of policy coherence. This is where one government policy undermines or works against another. One example would be spending 177 million a day on the war in Iraq whilst offering only 10 million in aid to tidal wave survivors. Sumatra is a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism, perhaps the Afghanistan of tommorrow. Another would be Europe spending 9 times as much on agricultural subsidies as they spend on aid to developing countries whilst closing their markets to developing country agricultural exports. If you look at either case, its madness from an economic policy point of view. Nor, btw, is it in tune with conservative free market economic policy.

This post reeks with stupidity and ignorance. We are sending $35 million initially. You can't just throw money at the disaster.. it might end up in the pockets of some officials. Your beliefs are inadequate and inefficient.

	30-12-2004 13:58									#442
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And he smells. Tell him he smells.

	30-12-2004 14:15									#443
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You're a fine one to protest.

I'm not protesting, I'm just pointing out the obvious. This thread has previosly covered all aspects of the quake, but now there are other options.

	30-12-2004 14:35									#444
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo This post reeks with stupidity and ignorance. We are sending $35 million initially. You can't just throw money at the disaster.. it might end up in the pockets of some officials. Your beliefs are inadequate and inefficient.

You don't just throw money at the disaster and give it to corrupt officials. You go there with water treatment teams, field hospitals and medics. They need transports, medicine and equipment to do their job. Those things cost money. And they are needed NOW!

	30-12-2004 14:45									#445
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and on and on you go. How many transports has Sweden sent? The entire EU?

Last I heard the US military was sending transports, and equipment. They come from America, btw.

Do you want to give it a rest now, or should we keep flaming?

	30-12-2004 15:05									#446
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie You go there with water treatment teams, field hospitals and medics. They need transports, medicine and equipment to do their job. Those things cost money. And they are needed NOW!

Australia has sent all those things. We have the navy and airforce up there.

A lot of Swedes do appear to have been killed. We have several thousand unaccounted for.

	30-12-2004 15:22									#447
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie You don't just throw money at the disaster and give it to corrupt officials. You go there with water treatment teams, field hospitals and medics. They need transports, medicine and equipment to do their job. Those things cost money. And they are needed NOW!

We are.

"Pacific Command Rallies Tsunami Relief Resources
By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Dec. 29, 2004 — Three Marine Corps disaster relief assessment teams are on the ground or about to arrive in Thailand, Sri Lanka and Indonesia, and at least two P-3 aircraft are conducting initial reconnaissance of damaged areas as a wide range of other Defense Department assets works its way to tsunami-stricken regions of the Indian Ocean.

U.S. Pacific Command has marshaled assets ranging from carrier strike groups to water purification ships to aircraft to provide emergency support for victims following the Dec. 26 earthquake and subsequent tsunamis, Marine Corps Lt. Gen. James Conway, director of operations for the Joint Staff, told reporters today at a special State Department briefing.

Navy Adm. Tom Fargo, commander of U.S. Pacific Command, stood up Joint Task Force 536 to coordinate U.S. relief efforts, Conway said. A forward command element has moved into a military base at Utapao, Thailand, and the headquarters is in the process of deploying. Marine Corps Lt. Gen. Rusty Blackman, commander of the 3rd Marine Expeditionary Force based in Okinawa, will command the joint task force.

Meanwhile, the first of three Marine disaster relief assessment teams being sent to the region arrived in Thailand earlier today and a second team was due to arrive in Sri Lanka this afternoon. A third team will arrive in Indonesia Dec. 30, Conway said.

In addition, U.S. Pacific Command has committed six C-130 aircraft and nine P-3 aircraft to the relief effort. Conway said all the C-130s and four of the P-3s will operate out of Utapao. Five other P-3 aircraft will operate out of Diego Garcia.

Conway said at least two of the P-3s already are conducting observation and reconnaissance of damaged sites.

In addition, the USS Abraham Lincoln carrier strike group, which was in Hong Kong when the earthquake and tsunamis struck, has been diverted to the Gulf of Thailand to support recovery operations, Conway said.

Aircraft from the strike group are checking the Malacca Straits for debris before the strike group transits the area. "If it is clear — and early reports indicate it might be — the five ships associated with that carrier strike group will take position off the island of Sumatra," Conway said.

Conway said the Lincoln carrier strike group has 12 helicopters embarked that he said could be "extremely valuable" in recovery missions.

An additional 25 helicopters are aboard USS Bonhomme Richard, headed to the Bay of Bengal. Conway said the expeditionary strike group was in Guam and is forgoing port visits in Guam and Singapore and expects to arrive in the Bay of Bengal by Jan. 7.

Conway said the strike group, with its seven ships, 2,100 Marines and 1,400 sailors aboard, also has four Cobra helicopters that will be instrumented in reconnaissance efforts.

Because fresh water is one of the greatest needs in the region, Fargo has ordered seven ships — each capable of producing 90,000 gallons of fresh water a day — to the region. Conway said five of these ships are pre-positioned in Guam and two will come from Diego Garcia.

A field hospital ship pre-positioned in Guam would also be ordered to the region, depending on findings of the disaster relief assessment teams and need, Conway said.

The U.S. State Department is leading U.S. support for the relief effort. Marc Grossman, undersecretary of state for political affairs, is leading the U.S. task force formed today to respond to the crisis.

Grossman said the task force will work with the regional core group, made up of Australia, Japan and India, to provide coordination and assistance. It also will help coordinate the interagency response in Washington, D.C., and encourage additional international support for the relief effort, he said.

"This is going to be a giant international requirement. Although we make a substantial contribution — more than anyone else in these emergencies — this is certainly not for us to do alone," Grossman said. "It is going to take a worldwide effort. We would expect and hope and believe the world will respond."

But Andrew Natsios, administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development, stressed that "the principal responders in humanitarian emergencies are the people themselves who live there." This, he said, includes local officials who are in charge of responding and the national disaster response teams "who speak the language, have the maps, know the transportation system."

Natsios acknowledged that these groups can sometimes get overwhelmed by the scope of a crisis and need help.

"We need to not think that these people are all paralyzed and can't help themselves, and we go in there and save them all," Natsios said. "We know that most of the best work is done by the people themselves. Our job is to support the people in the cities and in the villages who will begin the reconstruction process. So we are not there to tell them what to do, but to ask them how we can help.""

Original version: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec...2004122905.html

Australia has? Not before the US did. The US sent far more ships and airplanes. AH sees this as a chance to capitalize on his political views.

	30-12-2004 15:34									#448
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither and on and on you go. How many transports has Sweden sent? The entire EU? Last I heard the US military was sending transports, and equipment. They come from America, btw. Do you want to give it a rest now, or should we keep flaming?

I'm not flaming, you are getting it all wrong. I'm responding to others flames. I already stated that everything America sends is a bonus. It's appreciated.

If you read this thread some pages back, you will know what our government is sending. And I don't think it's enough.

I suggested we should call in the army, but on second thought, that might be a bad idea. They are just pimpy teens, who can only provide manual labour, which those contries already have an excess of. What's needed is skilled rescue workers and medical staff with the right equipment.

	30-12-2004 15:38									#449
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo We are.

USA

	30-12-2004 15:39									#450
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The facts are this: America is sending the bulk of the help. Since when is sending most of the assistance considered a bonus? It will be upon the governments of the region to use their own militaries in the clean up operation. Focusing on the clean up operation to prevent air bourne bacteria outbreaks is perhaps the second most important thing to do, after providing food and medicine.

Besides the one Thai aircraft carrier, the US is the only nation to provide aircraft carrier groups to bring in supplies too. A huge potential. A ship that large can carry quite a lot.