30-12-2004 03:11									#361
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: with 14 already confirmed dead primarily in Thailand Well, on the bright side, the world has lost several pedophiles the last couple of days.

Not all tourists going in Thailand a pedophiles. Thailand can flaunt many other things to attract tourists than its red light districts.

Besides, southern Thailand is not Bangkok. Tourism there is much more about beach resorts.

	30-12-2004 03:17									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Well, we do have the Rwandan Genocide (1 million), the Sudan and Congo wars (minimum 2 million for each) in the last 11 years. I haven't seen it on the news, ergo it didn't happen.

Come on, Rwanda was on the news every day while it was going on-it was no secret- i remember it vividly.

Sudan and Congo, certainly, but everyone watching the news knew Rwanda was going on.

	30-12-2004 03:17									#363
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I don't think I'd attribute animals a sixth sense for that... They probably instinctively ran away from the water when it started receding, whereas I heard in many places people actually came toward the sea to see what was happening.

Not to mention that the wildlife is probably more often inland, while many people live practically on the beach.

	30-12-2004 03:23									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie The debate started when I quoted an American who made the comparison. But yes, it is apples and oranges - 9/11 was a very minor trauma compared to this.

I think you are overstating the difference when you say very minor by comparison. No question that the tsunami has taken more lives a number of times over than were taken on 2001/9/11 but it's not as if we are comparing millions vs thousands. Fatalities of both distasters were in the thousands. I think only a disaster that killed several million could allow 9/11 to be called very minor by comparsion otherwise you leave little room for disasters that might make 9/11 simply look minor by comparison.

	30-12-2004 03:25									#365
	Well, if we're gonna use this for cliched bashing... Tired of ads?

Contributions to relief for the victims of this disaster:

America - $35 million

Americans donating to Amazon.com - $2.6 million and counting

France - $135 thousand

Now, who are the stingy ones?

	30-12-2004 03:27									#366
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The West.

OMG PWND!!111

	30-12-2004 03:29									#367
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten France - $177 thousand

Your figure is false
(France is giving 22.16 M€)

	30-12-2004 03:31									#368
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Yes, it was false. The $177 thousand figure was in Australian dollars. $135 thousand in American dollars.

I can't read anything on the page you linked, BTW...

	30-12-2004 03:31									#369
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"La France a annoncé avoir affecté 15 millions d'euros à l'aide internationale et l'Allemagne 20 millions. "

http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=264809

EDIT: beaten by Spiffor

	30-12-2004 03:33									#370
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Yeah, 15 million euros is what I'm seeing. It's the last update on Tim Blair's post. Less stingy, but still shameful...

	30-12-2004 03:35									#371
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'French Tsunami Toll 14 Dead, 35 Missing-Minister

Tuesday, December 28, 2004 3:23:03 PM ET

PARIS (Reuters) - The number of French victims of southern Asia's tsunami disaster has risen to 14 and at least 35 people are missing after being swept away by giant waves, Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said on Tuesday.

"At the moment I can say there are 14 French dead in this tragedy for sure, 35 or 37 missing who we are searching for and there are 105 French injured," he told France 2 television from the Sri Lankan capital Colombo, where he arrived with aid supplies earlier on Tuesday.

"There are probably dozens of French we are searching for and don't know where they are," he said.

"Many French and Europeans left on vacation without saying when or where they were going. So unfortunately we have to consider these numbers to be provisional."

Barnier was due to continue to Thailand on Wednesday morning to bring aid supplies and survey the damage from the giant wall of water triggered by an earthquake in Sumatra.

The French Defense Ministry was sending eight experts in identifying bodies and a military airplane that will fly over the Maldives and the Thai coast to search for people cut off by the flood and for the bodies of victims.

Paris has earmarked 100,000 euros ($135,400) for initial rescue efforts in Thailand. It planned to send 16 rescue workers to Thailand on Tuesday and 10 tonnes of humanitarian aid to Sri Lanka in the next few days, the ministry said. ($1=.7386 Euro)'

evidently Reuters was lazy and only included aid specifically promised to Thailand, and then blogger Tim Blair pounced on it. Thats the problem with saying ANYTHING about national aid figures in the first couple of days. This will be BILLIONS of dollars (US) and one hopes govts are spending more time getting aid out and planning on near future needs than on counting it.

In fairness to Tim Blair, this is a gut reaction to the quibbling about the initial American response.

	30-12-2004 03:36									#372
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Yeah, 15 million euros is what I'm seeing. It's the last update on Tim Blair's post. Less stingy, but still shameful...

Yeah 35 million $ is not stingy from 300 million people nation than 29.9 $ from a 57 million people nation

	30-12-2004 03:37									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Yes, it was false. The $177 thousand figure was in Australian dollars. $135 thousand in American dollars.

And of course you know nothing about the value of the Euro, and thus you believe that 26.16 M€ = 135 k$

quote: I can't read anything on the page you linked, BTW...

I know it's extremely complicated to read the one line written in bold character. In this line, the figure 26.16 M€ is prominent too
The source is the French foreign ministry. I distrust many things that come from there, but not things that are publicly verifiable like the precise public amount of humanitarian aid. In any case, I trust this figure over some blog any day of the week.

	30-12-2004 03:38									#374
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Yeah 35 million $ is much more generous from 300 million people nation than 29.9 $ from a 57 million people nation

$35 million isnt going to be the final US figure any more than $135,000 was the final French figure. And I think you know that.

Though, I for one, am happy that THIS is how nations are competing.

	30-12-2004 03:38									#375
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quote: Yeah 35 million $ is not stingy from 300 million people nation than 29.9 $ from a 57 million people nation

I appreciate both contributions, but this thread abandoned such positive sentiments a long time ago. Had to find something inane to ***** about if I want to contribute.

	30-12-2004 03:40									#376
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LotM: Why do you keep talking about 135k$? France is giving ATM almost as much as you. You know that wont be their final figure either.

	30-12-2004 03:49									#377
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius LotM: Why do you keep talking about 135k$? France is giving ATM almost as much as you. You know that wont be their final figure either.

because that was cited in an early report. Im suggesting that we all stop discussing the early reports - we all know the final figures will dwarf these.

	30-12-2004 03:55									#378
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark because that was cited in an early report. Im suggesting that we all stop discussing the early reports - we all know the final figures will dwarf these.

	30-12-2004 03:55									#379
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark because that was cited in an early report. Im suggesting that we all stop discussing the early reports - we all know the final figures will dwarf these.

Yes, a repot dealing solely with what the French would contribute to digging in Thailand (one of 12 nation affected) and in no way every dealing with the full scope of the innitial French response, hence utterly irrelevant to even this discussion form day one.

	30-12-2004 03:56									#380
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Thats fine with me. Besides counting just the money is disgusting, even though I'm an economics major. But I do think a certain "competition" among nations to help is a good thing.

	30-12-2004 03:59									#381
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To my mind, it does no good at all, except to give some people an excuse to be pissy at each other. It's almost as if some are going to lay blame for the tragedy itself at each others' feet.

	30-12-2004 03:59									#382
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, a repot dealing solely with what the French would contribute to digging in Thailand (one of 12 nation affected) and in no way every dealing with the full scope of the innitial French response, hence utterly irrelevant to even this discussion form day one.

all the numbers cited are incomplete - the US number was basically all the cash that AID (the Agency for International Development) had on hand in its emergency response fund - it does not include efforts by Dept of Defense and other govt agencies. It was by NO MEANS a measure of the US govt commitment (not to mention private donations) Who knows how each govt is doing its accounting, and whats included? All this "your govt is too stingy relative to mine" is silly at this point.

	30-12-2004 04:00									#383
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Thats fine with me. Besides counting just the money is disgusting, even though I'm an economics major. But I do think a certain "competition" among nations to help is a good thing.

yes, but lets compete based on total effort, not the first day announcements.

	30-12-2004 04:01									#384
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Fine, but the timlin piece was especially flawed, so even if you want to get involved in the pissing match, that was a poor figure to use.


The fact is, total world aid won't be nearly enough to deal with half this disaster, but I doubt outside aid is every nearly enough, unless it occurs in a really miserable and tiny state.

	30-12-2004 04:02									#385
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Contributions to relief for the victims of this disaster: America - $35 million Americans donating to Amazon.com - $2.6 million and counting France - $135 thousand Now, who are the stingy ones?

You. Canada is giving 40 million as of today.

	30-12-2004 04:04									#386
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Though I agree with LotM that we probably haven't seen the final numbers as yet.

	30-12-2004 04:45									#387
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It's very fine with all those high numbers, and it sucks when the oppositions to current governments claims that they don't spend enogh.

As long as noone knows where and for what, money are useless.

It's also a problem that damages are as widespread as they are. Areas with good infrastructure needs one kind of help, and those with bad needs another kind. Of course - taking into account how hard they are hit.

The main help needed in the first wave is pure basic and don't crave big bucks - communication, coordination, shelter, food/water (first isn't so bad but may be a logistic nightmare - second is worse because of disease) and sadly collection and burial of deads. All of this is more or less standard procedure, although the scale and spread in area must be a new experience.

The second wave is where the big bucks are needed - rebuilding infrastructure and getting people back to some kind of normal.

	30-12-2004 05:19									#388
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse It would be nice if the untold billions being spent on the war in Iraq were channelled into relief efforts - expect to see more comments like that. This makes the Iraq war look even more immoral and obscene.

stupid post.

what do we do? Cut off all funding to our troops in Iraq so we can provide humanitarian aid.

That will lead to the deaths of over 100,000 soldiers in Iraq.

	30-12-2004 05:25									#389
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark It would be nice if the money you spent on your SUV would be channeled into relief efforts. This makes your SUV even more immoral and obscene.

Well hardly - 177million a day spent on the Iraq war versus my $5000 car - yeah right.

	30-12-2004 05:32									#390
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie I haven't mentioned the Iraq war in this thread, but I think it makes perfect sense if you are debating where dollars should be spent and where they should not be spent. You can choose to spend your money on killing people who did not invite you into their country, or you can spend your dollars to help people who are in desperate need of help. It's your choice.

the problem is we are stuck there for the time being. Whether the war should have been faught or not is irrelevant. We can't just pull out now.