18-05-2005 21:50									#271
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Something to be tested in the simulator. I'll get the PK situation up to date. Btw, 'rather low losses'. Are you willing to accept any losses??

Not if we can prevent it. But with a Needlejet in place they might go around to killing one unit. Also, we have no control over those Rovers, so they too would have a theoretical chance.

	18-05-2005 22:23									#272
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But if we attack lal, and the Angels accept the AI's vendetta declaration (assuming it does give one) then we're scot free to build the Ascetic Virtues ourselves

("treacherous backstab by the Angels, loss of commerce income, etc etc, so all prior deals are off")

	18-05-2005 22:25									#273
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Googlie But if we attack lal, and the Angels accept the AI's vendetta declaration (assuming it does give one) then we're scot free to build the Ascetic Virtues ourselves ("treacherous backstab by the Angels, loss of commerce income, etc etc, so all prior deals are off")

Oh, this is beautiful.

But we need to make sure they have a decision in this. I mean, if they will be forced to go to war (literally, because of game mechanics), we gain nothing.

	19-05-2005 00:12									#274
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Right. And if we attack the PK's in 2172 then we'll be notified of the Angels "coming to the aid. etc" then we can pass on to the A's that this has happened, and that we await their offer of Treaty reinstatement

If they do, then we're no worse off

if they maintain the vendetta status, then in 2173 we rush the AV in Fort Superiority or Ironholm (we might wasnt to consider, this turn or next, upgrading a crawler somewhere in North Arcadia in anticipation. If we don't build the AV, then our next SP- perhaps the CF - can be instabuilt there)

	19-05-2005 04:13									#275
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So we're at somewhat of a decision point

Do we try and get 250 each from all 3 factions (see the 3 separate "relations" threads and let them dogfight over the AV

or

do we hold true to the Angels, and deal only with them and attack lal next turn and see if the A's AI reacts as we expect and what the team does as a result?

Do we have a preference where the AV goes if not to us?

Edit: lest we be betrayed, maybe we should ask for 125 upfront and the balance over up to 5 years. I'd really like, if we go this route, to get the 250 in a lump sum, to avoide anyone reneging, but the A's and G's don't have that much in reserves. Morgan can afford it, so maybe with him it's a lump sum

Last edited by Googlie on 19-05-2005 at 04:26

	19-05-2005 08:14									#276
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I say forget the angles now that things have deteriorated so much. Auction off the AV and blitz Lal. I don't see anything DA's can do militarily besides some probe attacks on our invasion force since they are so far away.

	19-05-2005 12:11									#277
	Remove this text

Well, we want AV in Gaian hands, if not for us. As to the Angels, we are not openly planning to build it, and negotioations about the project with other teams were not part of that deal. So, let us try to trade with everyone.

	19-05-2005 14:22									#278
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quote: do we hold true to the Angels, and deal only with them and attack lal next turn and see if the A's AI reacts as we expect and what the team does as a result?

and then if not us like modo said the gaians

	20-05-2005 06:25									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Right. And if we attack the PK's in 2172

Can we attack them next year already?

	20-05-2005 07:16									#280
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Naw - we only have 1 amphi unit nearby (the R-112 in the trannie 3 tiles outside Planning Authority. next year we can upgrade the veteran unity rover also on that trannie, and we;ll have 3 B-4's within range at Iaci (if we redeploy the one currently at 2NS across the ocean next turn)

It'll all depends on what Lal does with the garrison - whether he depletes it, leaves it as is, or adds that rover on the monolith to it

Our Buster Ocean Task Force is 21 tiles away from the base, but it's first move next turn is into fungus, so we couldn't make it in 3 turns anyway

But if we can thrash out the pros and cons of giving PE to Zak, and coaxing him to build the AV, then we can more leisurely build the assault force for Lal

	20-05-2005 14:48									#281
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hmz...cant we do something like that with Lal? let him build the AV (we cant build it) and then take over the base and then we would have conquered the AV

	20-05-2005 18:19									#282
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That's another possibility - but we'd need to be Pacted with lal if we want to help instabuild the AV, other wise wehn we try tp move a ginfreighter into the base he's building it in we get the message "non-combat units may not attack"

So the Uni is still the better bet

	21-05-2005 09:59									#283
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so how does one coax the AI to build an specific SP? Just give him the tech and hope that he's gonna build it?

	21-05-2005 10:24									#284
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I guess so

(Technicsally there is a way - ask the COM - Buster - to use the Kody Codicil to enter the turn in 2172 after the Gaians have played, and play the Uni's turn, changing a build in one of their bases to the AV, then exit and save the turn and pass it on to the Angels.

It can be dome. but I don't know if Buster has any experiemnce yet with Kody's tool. Darsnan or I could do it, given the passwords for all factions - 'cept I'm with Sparta and D's with the Gaians.

Or Kody could himself - after all, he's one of our Mods )

G.

	21-05-2005 10:54									#285
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Cool idea Googlie!

But on the other hand, this would open up all sorts of dreadful possibilities. Should we be able to control production of all submissive's bases all the time? Only some of the time? When? Should we be able to set SE-settings, dictate policy? etc ...

And besides, Zak is also submissive to Lal, and I'm sure he wouldn't like Zak to build the AV for us.

	23-05-2005 05:18									#286
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

ya I'm just worried the other factions might cry foul if they found out we did something like that. I'd say keep the mods out of this.

	23-05-2005 12:45									#287
	Inflate your Upload Space

true is kinda sounds like cheating...

	23-05-2005 13:26									#288
	Tired of ads?

Whatever can be done by game mechanics, and nothing more is my opinion. I say we give the tech to Zak and hope he starts the AV, so we can rush it for him. This is still better than allowing the Angels or Morgan to build it, and it is not in violation of any deals. If Zak in fact builds the project, we can think about acquiring it by extortion.

	23-05-2005 18:19									#289
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Only downside is that Zak will immediately gift it to lal, who might then trade it to the Angels. If Lal starts the SP, then he won't trade, but if he doesn't .....

(and if he does cpomplete it, then we'll just make a point of capturing that particular base)

I don't know what the game mechanics are re: submissives if Zak starts it in the turn we give it to him, whether or not he'll thgen withold it from Lal

The next question is, if we sell/gift it to Zak, is: do we then assist him in instabuilding it by sending our ginfreighter to that base to help rush it?

	23-05-2005 18:32									#290
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Only downside is that Zak will immediately gift it to lal, who might then trade it to the Angels. If Lal starts the SP, then he won't trade, but if he doesn't .....

We have to risk, I think. Otherwise the Angels will build the project anyway, just a few turns later.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie The next question is, if we sell/gift it to Zak, is: do we then assist him in instabuilding it by sending our ginfreighter to that base to help rush it?

Of course. There would be no point gifting the tech if Zak could not get the project.

By the way, can a faction be submissive to more than one faction at a time? I thought the most recent one counts...

	26-05-2005 23:37									#291
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Here's an idea:

We instabuild the AV in Fort Liberty, but gift the base to Zak that same turn (changing its name to Mir lab - or some other Uni name) then next turn it builds the AV, then immediately (or maybe a turn later, so that we can announce that Zak has completed the AV) we demand the base back from Zak

Only downsides are

• he refuses to give the base back, so we are down a base
  
• Zak has Neural Grafting by then and decides to change SP from the AV to the NA

	26-05-2005 23:40									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 By the way, can a faction be submissive to more than one faction at a time? I thought the most recent one counts...

Yes - Routinely in 4-player PBEMs the CMN sets up 3-way AI submissive relationships whereby each AI faction is submissive to the other 2.

It works extremely well, as all 3 do co-ordinate reserach, and often will leapfrog just like human players do.

I'd expect to see Lal with Planetary Economics next turn (I never got past his demand to get it without paying or trading this turn, to get something of value for it). Let's hope that he commences the AV, and thus won't trade it on to the Angels "wouldn't want to see the AV fall into your hands, etc"

G.

	26-05-2005 23:53									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Here's an idea: We instabuild the AV in Fort Liberty, but gift the base to Zak that same turn (changing its name to Mir lab - or some other Uni name) then next turn it builds the AV, then immediately (or maybe a turn later, so that we can announce that Zak has completed the AV) we demand the base back from Zak Only downsides are he refuses to give the base back, so we are down a base Zak has Neural Grafting by then and decides to change SP from the AV to the NA This needs testing in the simulator first, but it's crazy enough to maybe just work!!

Another downside is, others will know what has happened. Or how do you intend to hide the base changing hands from the world?

	27-05-2005 01:12									#294
	Increase Your PM Length

Anyone who has the Uni infiltrated will see the AV completed, then a turn or two later won't see that base in Uni hands, so they can put 2 and 2 together.

And, really, do we care about the subterfuge becoming public knowledge? As far as agreements go, Zak built the AV, not us, so we're squeaky clean as regards the Angels and took the high road, and are just recouping the benefits of having another faction submissive to us.

After all, base trading with the AI is disallowed, but extortion is OK, per the rules .

As an aside, invoking the parallel turn rule (Q: is it parallel when the original game play turn is finished and done with?) I restarted 2172 from scratch and called up Lal. At that time (first contact) he'd have traded NG for Planetary Economics, but, of course, in the real gameturn we hadn't developed our strategy so far as to be considering giving it to Zak (and thereby to Lal) let alone Lal himself. And Zak would buy PE, NG and Doc:Init from us (almost exhausting his energy credits reserve)

If Lal hasn't got it by next turn we can call him up again and execute the trade for NG, then cash in that AA sitting in Tegea Harbour (or maybe trade a tech to the Gaians for NG - after all, we have about a dozen that they lack)

	27-05-2005 01:23									#295
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Googlie (or maybe trade a tech to the Gaians for NG - after all, we have about a dozen that they lack)

Specifically:

• Progenitor Psych
  
• Field Modulation
  
• Nonlinear math
  
• Polymorphic Software
  
• Adaptive Doctrine
  
• Adaptive Economics
  
• Intellectual Integrity
  
• Optical Computers
  
• Superconductor
  
• Cyberethics
  
• Doctrine: Initiative
  
• Planetary Economics

	27-05-2005 01:58									#296
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Googlie, gifting a base to the AI might be considered trading it...

	27-05-2005 02:58									#297
	Put an end to popups!

I really dislike trying at all cost to snatch the AV.
Bigger fishes to catch seem to me the CF and the HSA (especially this one!), not to talk about the weight of our word.

We should concentrate on the imminent attack on Lal and the seizure of his 2 AA. After all, a lot of our bases won't see size 7 anytime soon.

	27-05-2005 03:10									#298
	Remove this text

Wonder addiction, you call it. A thing that keeps players below Emperor level in Civ3. While our reputation might be less of an issue soon (due to the Planetary Datalinks securing many techs we would have to trade for otherwise, hence lessening the value of any tech deal to us), I am now convinced that open violation of deals is not yet an option.

MY point is as it was: give Zak the tech, and hope he starts the project. If he does, help him build it. This is honest enough, with a good chance of keeping AV from the others. We risk giving one tech out earlier than anticipated, but I think we can live with that.

	27-05-2005 09:35									#299
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, I gave Zak the tech in 2172. He prolly will want to complete his builds in his 3 bases before contemplating starting an SP.

(But we're a couple of turns before getting the ginfreighter in place to help him anyways)

Oh - and with the sim, after I got NG and cashed in the AA, we got bio-engineering. Now that gives the ability to build the Longevity Vaccine, which, for a faction running Planned (as we are) gives 2 less drones at every base.

That's a worthwhile SP for us to get if we plan on running Planned for another century or so

	27-05-2005 11:14									#300
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Oh - and with the sim, after I got NG and cashed in the AA, we got bio-engineering. Now that gives the ability to build the Longevity Vaccine, which, for a faction running Planned (as we are) gives 2 less drones at every base. That's a worthwhile SP for us to get if we plan on running Planned for another century or so

Yes, that would make popbooming much easier.

Do we have the resources to still get the Cyborg Factory if we build the two projects now? Will Crawler upgrades do?