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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
Eg there are two crawlers near Fort Soup just harvesting forests (only 2 mins). We could cash those in at FS to get a tree farm by MY 2170 (or MY 2169 if we also throw some cash at it).
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Done (see the MY68 turn thread)
On a different note, as the turn is open, do we want to continue to harrass Morgan from the air?
Or do we want to sign a truce? (under the auspices of while we are waiting for the results of the proposed Planetary Peace Conference)
They have Interceptors completed at Argi Narnia and Morgan Transport that can cover their east and west coasts, so we'd lose at least a couple of noodles for the sake of destroying a crawler or two - or destroying a mine or forest - not a good trade off, IMO
We should also move the Njord to safety until we can armor it and give it AAA - it's a sitting duck to a missile noodle, even an interceptor with a 50% penalty and green - even if the Njord was elite!!(see below) and it's currently within range of the Angi Interceptor being commissioned next turn
 Attachment: morgan air attack.gif
This has been downloaded 86 time(s).
Last edited by Googlie on 25-04-2005 at 20:28
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:16
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I say we withdraw. No point losing units for (rather) low-priority targets.
Last edited by Modo44 on 25-04-2005 at 20:37
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:16
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The trouble is that we need at some point to run DEM/Planned to pop boom in competition with the Gaians and Angels. We've hamstrung Morgan who needs a GA to boom, now that they can't do a geometric boom (every new size 3 base means 3 new ones with the (destroyed) PTS)
But already the Angels have a handful of size-7 bases and as soon as they get hab complexes they'll be off and running with dem/planned
The morale loss of changing out of Fundy can be partially alleviated by worm hunting and hoping for battlefield upgrades, but that's not a sure thing. A bioenhancement center (Neural Grafting) would get us back on Elites for new units, but running Power (Advanced Military Algorithms) gives us a +2 morale, and the Cloning Vats (Biomachinery - needs MMI and Retroviral Engineering) restores the -2 Industry that running power would cause
But there wouldn't be an easy solution for the probes loss of effectiveness (other than maybe doubling # Crypteia at the exposed coastal bases)
(I'm a bit confused as to the effective timimg in the game of a SE change. If we use the current turn as a simulator, and change now to Dem, then Lal treats us as though we are dem, but yet the probes all retain their Fundy status regarding morale.
I know that changing, eg to Green - has no effect on mindworm capture that turn (ie, no immediate +1 planet rating - notwithstanding the "no Quickie" rule - I never understood either why that was a problem as I understood that there was never an effect on units, actions, builds that change turn anyway) so I'm assuming it's the same with +/- probe. Yet why does Lal immediately see us as DEM? (or, I presume, Yang as POLICE, if we changed to that - and if he talked to us - maybe that's what the "no quickie" rule is meant to prohibit?)
Last edited by Googlie on 28-04-2005 at 19:03
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Modo44
Question is: Do we want to switch to Democracy at all. |
quote:
Originally posted by Googlie
The trouble is that we need at some point to run DEM/Planned to pop boom in competition with the Gaians and Angels. |
I agree with Googlie. Personally I'd say the question is not IF we should switch to democracy, but when we should. After all, if it's not for popbooming, why would we want to build tree farms and children's creches? 
quote:
Originally posted by Googlie
But there wouldn't be an easy solution for the probes loss of effectiveness (other than maybe doubling # Crypteia at the exposed coastal bases) |
Bioenhancement centers also provide probes with 2 extra morale levels.  Only for newbuilt probes of course. 
quote:
(or, I presume, Yang as POLICE, if we changed to that - and if he talked to us - maybe that's what the "no quickie" rule is meant to prohibit?) |
"Diplomatic fraud", so to speak, is indeed one of the reasons. Another thing is that apparently Industry would be affected the same turn. So you could switch to a very bad Industry SE setting, cash in your crawlers for a SP at an increased mineral value, and then switch back to a very good Industry SE, making your secret project cheaper. Last and first time I tested this out (a couple years back  ) it didn't work though. So either I might have been doing something wrong, or it has been fixed in one of the patches.
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wuy3
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3 cred per facility seems too expensive
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:16
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Tree Farms give an economy bonus, so there goes a part of that. Worm hunting should be keeping us out of cash trouble soon enough. I think the production boost with the increased population is well worth the investment.
That being said, I have my doubts about us being able to win peacefully. It still seems like the better option, but... Some random thoughts, taking a look at the last turn's completed save.
Most of our home bases are terribly underdeveloped. This means that while having production, we lack the cash and the labs needed to actually get things done. To really compete, we would need to bring most our bases up to speed quickly. Since some of them are at zero minerals already, with more upkeep to be dealt with, it seems infrastructure building will be a pain.
It looks to me as though we are much better prepared to conquer well developed bases, than to develop our own. Those are often made exclusively for unit production. About the only problem here is, we are out of targets that are both easy and juicy. Lal can be taken, but his bases are in bad shape structure-wise. Yang has great bases, but those only really start with Drone Mound and Unity Lair, and they come with a s*itload of units to boot.
It still seems that one option (after or while we popboom with some bases) is to attack Yang. Another one (almost as good in my opinion) is to ally with Yang against a human faction (or just aid him quietly), using the Hive as a very strong buffer.
I think we should try switching off Fundy, to see if Yang will be nicer to us then. I would even try running Frontier instead of Democracy, to make him happy. In the long run, the slower rowth would seem like a good investment to me. And if it does not work out with Yang after a few turns of running Frontier, we can still go Demo and popboom like crazy.
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wuy3
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ya but didn't we just go to war with Yang a while ago? I don't think he'll forgive us... err ever? Doesn't the AI keep a grudge till the very end if you cross them once?
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wuy3
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Yes I agree with Maniac on the anti-Yang stance. Although hes going to be a good buffer I don't think its worth the trouble and I'm almost positive it won't make any difference when war breaks out cause the Morgans and Gaians (maybe even the DA) allied together will just roll past his units and gain exp along the way.
That or I've been betrayed by the AI too many times in singleplayer to trust them anymore.
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:16
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Well, since Morgan accepted the truce, and even payed the 98 credits, I guess Yang is going down by an unanimous vote. I mean, soldiers simply must do something, so that they do not get bored. 
But, I would still try to delay this war by a few turns. If we can do that safely, I mean. The reason is simple, and rather obvious. The AI should commit resources against the others for as long as we can make it. Yang might be amassing units against us, but those are the ones that were going our way anyway. As long as there is no Vendetta, most of his new efforts go elsewhere (or so I hope).
I would like to propose the following:- We prepare a quick 3-base takeover (the 2 on "our" territory and the land choke point).
- We wait for the Hive to give us the reason to do it.
This would mean shifting most of the Air Force to Minas Tirith, loading up another Transport with offensive units, and building/upgrading to some Interceptors. Then we would wait for Yang to declare Vendetta when we ask him to leave. What do the members of the Junta think?
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Zeiter
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Sounds like a great idea, although I doubt that we'd need another transport crew. I think we could take out at least two bases in one turn as it is. We can take out the farthest bases first, and then send two units back to crush the intermediate base.
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wuy3
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Maybe we can get something out of this quick invasion from the gaians (thinking specifically about the peace deal). Announce to them we are helping out against our common enemy or something? Not sure if its worth the risks but they'll def know about the invasion once it begins since Hive is throughly infiltrated.
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:16
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After taking a good look at the possibilities, I think we can attack Lal soon, while maintaining a safe position against Yang. And since Lal is now a liability (considering his past and future tech trades with our enemies), I think the sooner we move the better.
If I understand the idea correctly, we would take U.N. Planning Authority, and proceed directly to seize U.N. Headquarters, considering other bases targets of opportunity. This can be achieved by moving 4 bombers (currently in Twonuts Stand, Minas Tirith, and Fort Superiority), and the sea detachment currently west of Iaci base (has an Amphibious Missile Rover, and an Unity Rover—to be upgraded). Using armed ships to damage defenders, we should be able to take the first base despite its heavy defenses. The next one would have less defenders, so it should be possible to follow the first attack rather easily. Land units from Arcadia can come in from the north and make sure no nasty surprises come out of U.N. High Commision.
It would take two turns to assemble an air squadron in Iaci Base to make sure the first step of the operation succeeds. Even if Yang attacks during that time (or rather declares Vendetta should we have to ask him to leave), we still have enough units to keep him occupied. We can use the Nedlejets currently at Fort Buster and Sector Craterwest to reinforce our air cover against Yang, or—depending on how the situation unfolds—to build a second wave against Lal.
I see two problems, though. One is probe protection. Lal has one at U.N. Commerce Commitee, and could move it against us. The other one are Rovers the Peacekeepers have, that sit out of reach of our land units. But those could probably be contained by simply blocking Roads with Needlejets.
Last edited by Modo44 on 18-05-2005 at 16:12
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:16
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Personally I'm fine with staying at peace, attacking the Hive or attacking the Peacekeepers. If we do want to attack though, personally I think we may not yet have enough forces to go for a quick breakthrough:
1) Keep in mind that both the Hive and Peacekeepers have missile needlejets. It would be recommended to have some F-6s available to defend against PK air strikes or against a Hive surprise attack back home while we're committed elsewhere.
2) While all those PK rovers should be easy to kill with our B-4 air fleet, the Peacekeepers also have 12 plasma-armoured units. Attacking those with B-4s is not recommended - remember we lost a B-4 this way near the end of the Corporate War. So I think if we want to attack we should build at least a couple more B-6s. Especially to strike at the PK bases protected by a perimeter defense. Doesn't need to be a lot I think. If we'd build two more, we'd have a total of four B-6s if we bring the two existing also to the PK front.
3) As Modo points out, probe defense might also form a problem. If not against the PKs themselves, then against the other human factions. Capturing the eastern shore PK bases would lay us open for Angel infiltration. So if we attack, personally I'd hope we could force him into submission before we're forced to capture his eastern bases. That way we could keep him as a buffer against the Angels, just like the University is one against the Corporation. Anyway, in any case training some extra Crypteia first might also be recommended when planning an invasion.
Another issue is that the Peacekeepers are allied with the Angels. If we attack Lal, this will cause the Angel AI to automatically intervene. It might cause diplomatic troubles invading their ally. Whether or not we care about that is another question I assume, related to our attitude towards Ascetic Virtues.(?)
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
1) Keep in mind that both the Hive and Peacekeepers have missile needlejets. |
Rrrright. Lal will have one in 2 turns. One. 
I think we can enter, kill, and take over enough of Lal's land to make him whine and surrender. I admit it would require careful planning, and upgrades, but it is possible with rather low losses.
quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
Another issue is that the Peacekeepers are allied with the Angels. |
Now, this is a real problem. If we want to stay at peace with the Angels, attacking Lal might not be welcome. Not much can be done here, as the Angels are not (openly) acting against us, so we would look bad no matter what. And it is true that hostile actions might make any future deals impossible (or almost impossible, which is about the same).
So, either we build the Ascetic Virtues, and attack Lal, basically killing any friendly relationships we might still have with the Angels, or we do nothing, in which case they will grow undisturbed. I must say I only have a very vague idea of what we can expect from them.  An "inbetween" move would be to make up a story and prepare the Angels for our anti-Lal venture, so that they are not so disturbed. but would it work? I have no clue.
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25-04-2005 20:22
) and be quiet on this front, allowing 80% of the Air Force to '6-day-war' the Peacekeepers after?
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