08-03-2005 13:19									#151
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quote: Originally posted by sentry33 Regarding the attack plan - they still can spot plane from the water. I am not sure about military situation in this region - do we have any sea units around?

No not really. The Morgans have two probe foils and a 2-3 foil which I believe are unaccounted for.

Can they still spot the noodle if we "park" it over a fungus square?

	08-03-2005 20:09									#152
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quote: Though I do not agree that presence of he Air Force is only tactical concern - It affects whole strategic situation.

But if we fear a Morgan-Angel-Gaian alliance, whether we have AP or not is not of major concern. They are going to establish the alliance anyway, in my opinion, and our possible increase in strength won't change that. If they are to establish it, they would have done so based on the PTS raid already, so I don't think AP would be the straw that would break the camel's back.

I could suggest to the Angels that they keep IntInt to themselves for a turn. However, this means that:

1) We reaffirm to them (and probably the Morgans) that we are gunning for the SP (not that this isn't clear to them already, but perhaps we can lull the Morganites into thinking we are focusing our resources on an impending attack - in fact, we could do some dodgy maneuvres to let the Morganites think so, via The Phalanx perhaps - while that would make CDF all the more important for them, it might be of use to us that they'll think we won't be building it ASAP)
2) The Angels can try to play us against each other by asking us for a "better offer"
3) Our strategy would depend on a third party (the Angels), whom we can't completely trust and whose motives clearly point to wanting the Morganites getting the CDF (makes the war between the two big factions longer and more stagnating).

I therefore don't think the diplomatic route is the good option here. Of course, if we can't destroy the supercrawler, we may have no other choice, but it will be a shot in the dark at best.

	09-03-2005 05:18									#153
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I'd go ahead and bite the diplomatic bullet, along the lines of:

quote: Suggested embassy post by Googlie We acknowledge your communication wherein you indicate that you will be in a position to send us Intellectual Integfrity in 2164 In our negotiations, we asked for - and pbtained - your and Gaian assurances that you would not build the CDF (and in exchange for which assurances we removed any onward trading embargo on etchs that we sent to you) At that time we also had an assurance from Morgan Corporation that they, too, would refrain from building the CDF (this in sxchange for technologies we sent to them in recompense). As a result we did not place restrictions on Angels trading of Int Int to Morgan. However, with our 2 factions being in Vendetta, I imagine that the Morgan guarantee is not worth the paper it was written on Accordingly, some Junta members are asking what we need to offer you to induce you to withhold Int Int from Morgan until the year after you send it to us (ie, 2165. (Otherwise, of course, with turn order, Morgan can complete the CDF the same year we do, but would then have it by virtue of turn order. The CDF is important to us if we are to contain the Hive (we note that the gaians have established a very effective choke point with some mindworms and a probe unit - alas, we do not have that geographical advantage, and must rely on offensive and defensive strength to offset the dozen of Hive Gatling Rovers heading our way) Our energy credits reserve is meager (thanks to sanctions) and thus we could offer a technology of your choice from among: Secrets of the Human Brain Polymorphic Software Nonlinear Mathematics Synthetic Fossil Fuels We look forward to hearing from you

At least we'll know - if they refuse - that there is a Morgan-Angels deal

	09-03-2005 05:54									#154
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Hmm, I feel a bit queasy about it, but it can't really hurt us, and it'll clear the air vis-a-vis our speculations on the extent of their co-operation.

	09-03-2005 05:57									#155
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But haven't we already provided them lots of trust and technology before we have even received the assumed payment (IntInt)? Wouldn't it be bending over backwards to give them yet another tech just for this purpose? Of course if the CDF is really worth it, but it may mean we can be seen as an "easy mark" to squeeze some extra from. But then again, a bit of desperation from our side making us seem a bit weaker than we really are might put some sand in the great cogs of Morgan-Angel co-operation ("They can't be as dangerous as you say they are!").

	09-03-2005 08:16									#156
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Well, I'm not so sure of Morgan-Angels co-operation. After all, they didn't Pact.

Maybe by Pacting with Lal, the Angels are sending us subtle signals??? (that they don't mind being aligned with us to a certain extent)

	09-03-2005 11:18									#157
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I wouldn't send that either ... If the Angels wanted to negotiate with us, they would have initiated talks already. The fact that they have not indicates to me that:

1. The conspiracy is already deep enough that any offers we can make are futile OR
   
2. The conspiracy is not there and the Morgans have not even approached the Angels an IntInt trade
   

Either way, giving the Angels more incentives for this trade seems kinda pointless, and if B is true we would only be putting ideas in their head

At least the Gaians can't send it to Morgan since they are ahead of the Angels in the turn (unless they probe it).

quote: Well, I'm not so sure of Morgan-Angels co-operation. After all, they didn't Pact.

It is entirely possible that A is true, and that the Angels/Morgans have opted not to pact simply to hide the conspiracy from us.

	09-03-2005 12:18									#158
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In any event, unless they (Morgan) sense something is up, we'll take out their crawler next turn.

They'll see the Njord still in their northern waters, ao may think that we're planning another invasion from the north, and so be off guard re hiding or tagteaming their crawler

And, btw, if we do kamikazi it, I suggest we rename our B-6's as Amphibious Chaos ECM Speeders - for a moment it will make them think we have Chaos weapons and Neural Grafting (but the 6-1-10 designation can't be changed, unfortunately)

see below:

Attachment: hoax.gif
This has been downloaded 64 time(s).

	09-03-2005 13:00									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia But haven't we already provided them lots of trust and technology before we have even received the assumed payment (IntInt)? Wouldn't it be bending over backwards to give them yet another tech just for this purpose?

Yes, it would. I was saying this all along. Our deep trust has been shown already. If they will stay our friends, they will do so without additional payments. If they conspire to trick us, they would just get another tech for free. No point giving it to them IMO.

	09-03-2005 16:27									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie And, btw, if we do kamikazi it, I suggest we rename our B-6's as Amphibious Chaos ECM Speeders - for a moment it will make them think we have Chaos weapons and Neural Grafting (but the 6-1-10 designation can't be changed, unfortunately)

Haha
How about naming it pwned! or something?

Sending a missile noodle on a kamikaze mission is quite an act. They'll wonder why we used a B-6 and not a B-4. The only possible conclusions I can think of is that we are being opportunistic or desperate. I hope they'll think desperate so that they'll continue building infrastructure. They're building rec tanks for crying out loud - yummy!

	09-03-2005 22:06									#161
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Hmm, the fact that the Morganites are producing almost only crawlers could support the hypothesis that they're preparing to build the CDF with Angel help.

	10-03-2005 00:39									#162
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Here's their 2162 base data:

Attachment: 2162-morgan data.gif
This has been downloaded 72 time(s).

	10-03-2005 01:33									#163
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That's a lot of crawlers. Definitely SP-buildage going on. And it has to be the CDF, any sane person would be building up defensive hardware otherwise - but crawlers = defensive hardware when the CDF is the case.

We need to cripple them before it's too late. That's the only choice I can see - the diplomatic route, as I have said, is uncertain, and I see no reason why the Angels would go with it. It's obvious they have hijinks going on.

Should I just confront them on this? That might risk our receival of IntInt in the first place, but on the other hand, maybe roughing them up a bit on it would make them quaver just a bit to keep them from helping the Morganites. But on the other hand, again, it might just drive them further into their laps...

And any more techs to the Angels would mean merely making them stronger for the inevitable confrontation.

	10-03-2005 02:49									#164
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IMO they will use lot of crawlers to rush-build instant airforce once lal researches doc air - thats why they are not building defences but crawlers now

	10-03-2005 03:49									#165
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I don't think it's as sinister as that.

They have lost the key to their middle-game strategy, (the Kody Tactic),and now can't pop boom thru base multiplication, nor can they work 3 pops in a base without a strong psych allocation.

They can crawl nuts to a base to spur regular growth, or minerals to make up for that lost worker (same reason they are building recycling tanks in some bases - for the 1-1-1 bonus)

Without crawlers, they just don't have the minerals to support a strong standing army until they get clean reactors which will be their next tech after Neural Grafting, I bet (they'll trade for, or steal, Doc Air)

Then I think they'll go for the Longevity Vaccine and run a green economy for the 1-less-drone-per-base benefit (and I bet they've discussed that with the Gaians, hence the Pact - a green Morgan, after all, makes a lot of sense)

So I see their crawlers as being primarily for food and minerals, with the objective of getting the LV (and if, in the meantime, they get a chance at the CDF, they'll be opportunistic enough to grab it)

They have 2 crawlers being commissioned next turn ( Hindenburg and Micha) - it's the latter we're worried about 'cos that will be sent to work the mine their supercrawler is currently on, so where will it go?

Last edited by Googlie on 10-03-2005 at 03:56

	10-03-2005 18:53									#166
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Hmm - we need to explore every option!!

Invoking the parallel turn rule, I experimented with the Lal vendetta discussion - if we ask him to declare vendetta on Morgan, and when he asks "what's in it for me?" we reply that otherwise we will cancel our pact, he replies (below):

So let's do it next turn

Attachment: 2162 - lal complies.gif
This has been downloaded 63 time(s).

	10-03-2005 20:45									#167
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ooops, sorry I missed that
I have never used that option unless I wanted to break a pact intentionally, didn't think it ever worked. Hope we can do it again next turn.

	10-03-2005 21:24									#168
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This post may be in contradiction with me beating the drums of war re the Gaians yesterday, but I've grown a little concerned. I have made pessimistic estimates regarding our chances against the Morganites in the past though, so I'm probably seeing things too dark.

Still... last year for all we knew Doctrine: Air Power would only become available to the other factions in over ten years. Time enough to significantly damage the Morganites. But now the Hive switched to DAP research, and the PKs speeded up their research. The other factions could have DAP in little more than five years.

With that prospect I'm wondering, is it still possible to invade the Corporation succesfully? How can we prevent this from turning into a war of attrition, a war that we could lose. For in air wars quantity can often be more important than quality, and since the Corporation once again has a bigger economy than us...

Just some food for thought I guess. Better prepare for air wars now before it's too late.

Edit: Same counts for the Hive. It's easy to contain masses of AI land units, but air units become more difficult.

	10-03-2005 21:58									#169
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Meaning, we have to clobber the Hive quickly, to make sure no nasty surprises come from them. In other words, we need a truce.

Morgan will probably not be easy to contain if they get planes, but we still can do serious damage before they do. Can we make a landing with chances of success in say 5-6 turns?

	11-03-2005 08:24									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac ...............and since the Corporation once again has a bigger economy than us........

But it will be slightly smaller with the Uni's Vendetta, (Morgan was getting 10 ec's per turn from that Pact) and more so if we can persuade Lal to declare Vendetta (Morgan gets 14 per with his Pact with Lal)

Plus, our campaign of shelling his forests and mines, and bombing his crawlers and formers will surely deplete his minerals

quote: Same counts for the Hive. It's easy to contain masses of AI land units, but air units become more difficult.

Maybe we need to change to POLICE after getting Int Int and then approach Yang for a truce, treaty, or maybe even a Pact (against the Gaians, perhaps?)

	11-03-2005 14:03									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Maybe we need to change to POLICE after getting Int Int and then approach Yang for a truce, treaty, or maybe even a Pact (against the Gaians, perhaps?)

I was thinking about Police State + Green. But can we handle the slow growth tht comes with this setting?

	11-03-2005 15:27									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 I was thinking about Police State + Green.

I agree. Without Green Police State is an economic deathwish.

quote: But can we handle the slow growth tht comes with this setting?

We're hardly growing anyway at the moment. If we want to grow, the best way would be a popboom with creches under Democratic/Planned. But we currently don't have the required infrastructure for that.

	12-03-2005 00:01									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac We're hardly growing anyway at the moment. If we want to grow, the best way would be a popboom with creches under Democratic/Planned. But we currently don't have the required infrastructure for that.

We currently hardly have any civilian infrastructure.
I'm ashamed to post in the Democracy Game Forum, for fear they read my sig and call me the "Spartan S of S in charge of useless affairs"!

However, there are more pressing matters (though I think we shouldn't neglect facilities, even now):
I vote against moving again the Gaian Union, at least until we build the CDF, and if possible until we bring the Morganites to their knees.
I think taking one Hiverian city could be enough to get a truce from Yang. Except this and maritime patrols, we should then focus production of all new units to one goal: Invasion of Morgania.
It combines a few of good principles: simplicity, surprise, concentration of forces, attack of the most threatening enemy first.

	13-03-2005 12:35									#174
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I think the issue Maniac brought up still needs to be resolved. Do we still think we have a chance to perform a quick invasion of Morgan?

Frankly, even if we rush this like crazy, and have a troops on Morgania in say 5 years, with an army of air units, we would not be safe. They would have airplanes and SAM-units in a year or so. With those they could bust our air blocks and do probe actions. We'd probably need a few Crypteia to go along. So maybe we'd need two transports, and we'd need to delay the attack several years. By this time Morgania would have a bloated air force / anti-air force, with missile and plasma units no less.

Maybe a quick land invasion of Morgania is too difficult to achieve, should we focus on some other target? .... I never liked Lal very much

	13-03-2005 14:34									#175
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Snoddasmannen, I too think attacking Morgan will be difficult. But if left alone now, attacking later will be even worse, at some point becoming nearly impossible to do. Fact is, we cannot seriously compete with our economics without huge upkeep problems. I think we need to give it a try.

Since Morgan seems to be more difficult than initially suspected, I suggest we move our whole air force against the corporation, while we can (i.e. they cannot fly ). Use only land units in the area to fight off Yang, at least for now. This will have a bigger chance of preparing good ground for an invasion.

Last edited by Modo44 on 13-03-2005 at 14:42

	13-03-2005 18:10									#176
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I agree - we need to focus our airforce on Morgan - and prolly need to take a foothold on his continent - a base with a stout defender(s) - a Skanky or two - and loaded with Crypteia, then we bomb the hell out of him while we can - crawlers, formers, anything that moves - while we ferry a larger invasion force over there

	13-03-2005 18:29									#177
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Alright, if you guys think we can hold a bridgehead on Morgania then I support it all the way But I suggest we rush those units next turn and set sail in 2163, time is money power

	14-03-2005 16:32									#178
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How many units can we build and have at Morgan's door in five years?

	22-03-2005 11:43									#179
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Hmm, they are building missle infantry mostly.

If they self-destruct missle unit near ours (whether airborne or not, stacked or not), all units nearby will sustain 30% dmg. Very bad cost-wise tradeoff for them, but still they can get rid of one or two of our planes if we are not careful.

	23-03-2005 10:53									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac How many units can we build and have at Morgan's door in five years?

I am very hesitant to go ahead and advocate a Morgan invasion before this question is answered and discussed properly. We have one transport, so I guess the answer is 4... Which kinds?

We have an elite 6-1-1 and an elite Crypteia we can deploy from Gythium. Other than that we have two commando inf units in MT (one impact, one missile), are those any good? We'd need to scrounge (is that a word?) up two more units to fill the first transport, and we'd need to get them to Gythium within two turns, preferably. What's that super amph missile rover doing down in 2Nuts?

And oh, wish me luck again today, I have a second interview with Opera That's one of the reasons I haven't been to active lately.