28-01-2005 21:31									#301
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ming Justify all you want... I remember reading justification from religious groups why gays should be discriminated against... they believed their reasons were just and it was different too... it doesn't make it right.

Not all justifications are created equal, either. Do you apply this logical relativity to math, too? Are arguments that 1+1=3 just as valid as 1+1=2?

	28-01-2005 21:33									#302
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ming I'm sure when you tell your grand kids about how you insulted and discriminated against people... they will have oh SOOOOOO much respect for you

That's funny, I certainly don't disrespect my parents for thinking that smoking is stupid...

	28-01-2005 21:39									#303
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by rah No, what this thread shows is the raw hatred of smokers by non-smokers. If the same hatred was shown towards their group, they complain. But it's ok to hate smokers because they choose to smoke. Pretty pathetic.

It is pathetic, but it is their choice.

I really don't believe that it's impossible to quit. Especially with all of the tools available to people today.

My mom quit smoking before I was born (my dad refused to have a wedding til she quit), and she was able to do it without all these fancy nicotine patches and gum...

	28-01-2005 21:41									#304
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I tend to dislike people who, simply by being around me, make me breath in highly toxic chemicals.

	28-01-2005 22:06									#305
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Asher It is pathetic, but it is their choice. I really don't believe that it's impossible to quit. Especially with all of the tools available to people today. My mom quit smoking before I was born (my dad refused to have a wedding til she quit), and she was able to do it without all these fancy nicotine patches and gum...

Since you've never experienced it first hand, your opinion doesn't carry any real weight. It's just your opinion. Not unlike people that say being gay is a choice. I'm not gay so whether I think being gay is a choice doesn't carry any real weight either ( i don't think it is by the way). I'll rely on my gay friends to provide relevant opinions. You should be as kind here. I doubt your mother was a pack a day smoker for almost 40 years. I've tried the patch, hypnotism and the drug, so I think i have more experience in this matter.

	28-01-2005 22:11									#306
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I quit smoking after about a week of trying. I only broke down once and that was when I was out drinking with a bunch of my smoker friends. No patches, no gum, just pure willpower.

	28-01-2005 22:42									#307
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I tend to dislike people who, simply by being around me, make me breath in highly toxic chemicals.

I tend to dislike people that are to stupid to get away from me when I smoke and still complain about it.

At my job we have a pavilion set up as the employee smoking area. has a couple of picnic tables and two ashtrays.

We have had idiots there with gas grills having a family picnic.

Needless to say, in cases like this I will stand in the middle of all these non smokers and light up just hoping someone complains.

Get a few nasty looks, but none of the cowards will say anything.

ACK!

	28-01-2005 22:43									#308
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I quit smoking after about a week of trying. I only broke down once and that was when I was out drinking with a bunch of my smoker friends. No patches, no gum, just pure willpower.

Do you still want a cigarette?

ACK!

	28-01-2005 22:58									#309
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

That's the scary thing, one of my workmates quit using the shots in the face. She had quit for 4 years, and I asked her if she still desired a cigarette and her reply was "every stinkin day"


And congrats Oerdin,

	29-01-2005 00:09									#310
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I quit smoking after about a week of trying. I only broke down once and that was when I was out drinking with a bunch of my smoker friends. No patches, no gum, just pure willpower.

I do think some people can quit easier than others. Some people just have more willpower. I think I could quit. But I never smoked, aside from a few cigarrettes when I was drinking. I thought it would pick me up, but they didn't work. Most people can't lose weight, but I can. It's not easy though, it takes considerable willpower to starve yourself.

	29-01-2005 00:12									#311
	Tired of ads?

I hate to say it, but Asher is right on this one.

that's all folks.

	29-01-2005 00:20									#312
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I love how people can justify discrimination...

Asher bases his criteria on choice... yet some would say religion is a choice, so I guess he feels you can discriminate against anybody with a religious belief...

Probably would have been well received in Nazi Germany

	29-01-2005 00:23									#313
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Sorry Diss, I gotta go with Ming/Rah here.

	29-01-2005 00:24									#314
	Suffering from ads?

I'm surprised Ming. I thought you would have sided with the employer's on this one.

	29-01-2005 00:25									#315
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ming I love how people can justify discrimination... Asher bases his criteria on choice... yet some would say religion is a choice, so I guess he feels you can discriminate against anybody with a religious belief... Probably would have been well received in Nazi Germany

Ming brings in Nazi Germany. Next thing you know smokers will be all put into death camps. Oh wait we don't have to, they will kill themselves eventually....

	29-01-2005 00:27									#316
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ming Asher bases his criteria on choice... yet some would say religion is a choice, so I guess he feels you can discriminate against anybody with a religious belief...

I'm sure you can.

Good luck getting the Catholic church to hire a Muslim. How much do you want to bet they discriminate.

	29-01-2005 00:27									#317
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think that smoking is less harmful than listening to Britney.

	29-01-2005 00:53									#318
	Get a bigger avatar today!

to the people that think this is all right:

Would you support a company's "right" to randomly search your home?

	29-01-2005 00:57									#319
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Sava to the people that think this is all right: Would you support a company's "right" to randomly search your home?

essentually I do. Because most employers in my city require drug tests.

	29-01-2005 00:57									#320
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Sava to the people that think this is all right: Would you support a company's "right" to randomly search your home?

No, but that's not the issue.

I do think it's a company's right to ask for a drug test, which is what these people were fired for.

	29-01-2005 01:00									#321
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Asher No, but that's not the issue.

Sure it is. What's the difference between one invasion of privacy and another? What if a company deems video gaming to be hazardous to your health? Don't they then have a right to search your home for video games?

quote: I do think it's a company's right to ask for a drug test, which is what these people were fired for.

And I disagree. What people do in the privacy of their own homes, or outside of work, is nobody's business. Unless of course, their work is affected by drug use. In that case, they would be fired for slacking off on the job or not working properly.

	29-01-2005 01:04									#322
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Sava Sure it is. What's the difference between one invasion of privacy and another? What if a company deems video gaming to be hazardous to your health? Don't they then have a right to search your home for video games?

Then it becomes trespassing.

quote: And I disagree. What people do in the privacy of their own homes, or outside of work, is nobody's business. Unless of course, their work is affected by drug use.

If this was true, all insurance companies would have a flat rate for everyone. That's not how insurance works.

What you do to dramatically increase your health risks is the business of the organization insuring you, and is hence the business of the person paying that insurance to protect you.

	29-01-2005 01:06									#323
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Asher Then it becomes trespassing.

So it's okay to search your body (drug tests), but not your home? Isn't the former a greater invasion of privacy?

quote: If this was true, all insurance companies would have a flat rate for everyone. That's not how insurance works.

I'm talking about work performance, not insurance costs.

	29-01-2005 01:08									#324
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sava So it's okay to search your body (drug tests), but not your home? Isn't the former a greater invasion of privacy?

What happens in the home is none of their business, unless they're paying your house insurance as well. If they were paying your house insurance, I'd think it would be okay for them to make sure you're not running a grow-op in your house, too.

Houses with grow-ops have a higher risk of fire.

quote: I'm talking about work performance, not insurance costs.

It doesn't matter, your purpose at the job is to add value to the company. If you cost way more than other members of the company to do the same work, why should they be forbidden from firing your ass?

	29-01-2005 01:10									#325
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You aren't required to take a drug test... but if you want the job, and they want to test, than you better take the test.

You're the one asking for the job. How does it violate a freedom? You have every right not to take the test, and they have every right not to hire you...

	29-01-2005 01:28									#326
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

As condition of hire, I agree that you have to go along with whatever is stipulated if you want the job. But once you're an employee, changing the rules, I don't agree with. Many companies have changed rules to target groups of people they wanted to get rid of. (I've seen it at three different companies where I worked)
It's just wrong. They don't tell you what they're actually doing and sugar coat it with good sounding business rationals. But having been in upper management I've been privy to what they were really trying to do.

For all we know, that's what they were doing here.
Condition of hire, YES, I have no problem.
After hire, NO, I just don't trust them.

	29-01-2005 01:40									#327
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Japher You aren't required to take a drug test... but if you want the job, and they want to test, than you better take the test. You're the one asking for the job. How does it violate a freedom? You have every right not to take the test, and they have every right not to hire you...

You can also be fired for not taking a test. So, in any meaningful sense of the word, employees often do "have" to take a drug test.

	29-01-2005 01:41									#328
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Asher It doesn't matter, your purpose at the job is to add value to the company. If you cost way more than other members of the company to do the same work, why should they be forbidden from firing your ass?

Since gays as a group also have a higher health risk, then you are agreeing that like smokers... companies have the right to fire them too just because they fall into a higher risk category... We are talking about COST, not choice... so your whole lame choice rationalization doesn't hold true...

	29-01-2005 01:42									#329
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: employees often do "have" to take a drug test.

they don't "have" to be employed

When you start a job there is generally some sort of contract or agreement. Like, I will actually show up, I will do my job, I will take drug tests...

If you don't show up you will be fired.

Don't sign the contract if you aren't willing to do what they ask...

	29-01-2005 01:48									#330
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Japher they don't "have" to be employed

Which renders the term "have" fairly meaningless, as I said. You don't "have" to obey traffic laws, but you'll be responsible for the consequences should you not do so. To quote Samuel Jackson in Die Hard 3, "I don't have to do nothing but stay black and die!"

quote: When you start a job there is generally some sort of contract or agreement. Like, I will actually show up, I will do my job, I will take drug tests...

There are some cases where even a previous agreement to take drug tests isn't necessary to require an employee to take such a test. Specifically, worker's compensation issues. If an accident occurs on the job, we can require a worker to take a drug test within 24 hours of the accident to prove that the worker wasn't in any way incapacitated by alcohol or illegal substances. If they refuse to take the test, they can be terminated immediately.