03-02-2005 06:56									#31
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Why save someone who doesn't have any money to their name? It's bad for the economy.

Leave it to the high-school dropout to be concerned about everyone else paying their bills for them.

	03-02-2005 07:00									#32
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Ming... it's well over 1% of the US population and baring in mind the likely economic state of the people affected (the poorest and those most likely to suffer from ill health) I think it's appalling.

	03-02-2005 07:09									#33
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Ming is right that the poorest people already have government health car and the upper class buy health car. Most of the middle class gets health care from their job unless their working in a low skill job.

It's the lower middle class who gets screwed on health care since they're to rich to qualify for the programs helping the poor but to unskilled to get a decent job.

	03-02-2005 07:27									#34
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Hey, I was just about to post a thread on what people thought was the best system for health care.

Personally I used to be on the fence over private vs public, but I'meaning much more towards public now. Having no health insurance sucks big time, and 40 million Americans not having it is just a disgrace... let alone the huge premiums people who do have health care end up paying. Its not acceptable.

Combine this with the fact that countries like Canada pay a fraction (per capita) what the US pays on administrative costs, etc... and the fact that routine procedures can cost up to 50% higher to perform in the United States vs, say, in Canada. All of this adds up to alot of inefficiencies and basically makes the US system more costly and bureaucratic (believe it or not) than a universal one. This all sort of leads to the conclusion that for-profit health care is sort of out-moded.

I'm not saying Canada's system is perfect, it certainly isn't, but I do think that there has got to be a better way than the current US system.

I think its logical to publicize health care in the US. At one point in time we decided that everyone deserves access to water as a basic right... and so water became virtually free. At another point we decided that everyone deserves access to police and fire prevention services... and so those became public rights too. Why not add health services to that list? In 15 years no one will remember what it was like to have to pay for health care...

It also doesn't have to be a single tier system. Everyone would still contribute to the pot via taxes, but those who can afford private care can get it. Just like how public schools operate.

Anyways, thats just my opinion.

	03-02-2005 07:28									#35
	Re: 1/2 U.S. personal bankruptcies from medical bills Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara 700,000 personal bankruptcies each year, half the total, are due to medical bills a study relseased tonight is showing. What's worse, 75% of those were with people who were covered with health insurance. We sure have the best system in the world. Yup. Can't find a linky at the moment, but it was on both NPR and ABC News.

Communism or socialised health care won't solve it. One way to solve is to push down costs (reduction of law-suits against doctors).

	03-02-2005 07:29									#36
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ridding of law suits

	03-02-2005 07:30									#37
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The reason why our health care costs are up is because of lawsuits. Even insurance can't cover the costs because doctors are forced to push up charges... it all falls down to bogus law-suits.

	03-02-2005 07:32									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo The reason why our health care costs are up is because of lawsuits. Even insurance can't cover the costs because doctors are forced to push up charges... it all falls down to bogus law-suits.

Dude, doctors are sued every where, not just in the US.

If this were the sole factor pushing up US healthcare costs, wouldn't it be doing the same everywhere else too?

	03-02-2005 07:33									#39
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Dude, doctors are sued every where, not just in the US. If this were the sole factor pushing up US healthcare costs, wouldn't it be doing the same everywhere else too?

you guys don't understand our national culture of lawsuits and sueing.

provide me with proof that your country has as many lawsuits as the U.S. (as a percentage of population since your population is lower) and equivalent monetary awards.

I still support national health care mind you. But I also support limiting lawsuits to $100,000 rewards for emotional suffering etc (this doesn't include medical costs)

	03-02-2005 07:36									#40
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Dude, doctors are sued every where, not just in the US. If this were the sole factor pushing up US healthcare costs, wouldn't it be doing the same everywhere else too?

It is the largest factor in the United States in why health care costs are so high. So go say dude to someone else, smart one. Commies are so blind.

	03-02-2005 07:37									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident you guys don't understand our national culture of lawsuits and sueing. provide me with proof that your country has as many lawsuits as the U.S. (as a percentage of population since your population is lower) and equivalent monetary awards.

I am American.

I don't have any stats yet, and I realize Americans happen to be a bit law-suit obsessed, but you can't honestly believe that this is the sole cause of increased health care in the US. Thats very simplistic. The US has a "for-profit" health care system. Thats a fact, its just what it is. They're not out to break even, they need to profit in order to exist. I can't fault them for it... they're companies! Government controled health care only needs to cover its costs. This is what it all comes down to. Its not lawsuits.

	03-02-2005 07:39									#42
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It isn't the sole cause, but the largest cause. It is that simple. Government controlled health care only needs to cover its costs? Yeah, you want the government controlling your health? Because I certainly don't. I think socialist healthcare would be a massive disaster for a country the size of the US.

	03-02-2005 07:39									#43
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn I am American. I don't have any stats yet, and I realize Americans happen to be a bit law-suit obsessed, but you can't honestly believe that this is the sole cause of increased health care in the US. Thats very simplistic. The US has a "for-profit" health care system. Thats a fact, its just what it is. They're not out to break even, they need to profit in order to exist. I can't fault them for it... they're companies! Government controled health care only needs to cover its costs. This is what it all comes down to. Its not lawsuits.

being a doctor is one of the most challenging careers one can take. You don't think they deserve the money they make? It takes them years just to pay off their costs for college and med school.

what you are implying is communism. Where doctors make the same as the rest of us.

	03-02-2005 07:40									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo It is the largest factor in the United States in why health care costs are so high. So go say dude to someone else, smart one. Commies are so blind.

I'm a commie? I'm a centrist who happens to believe that universal health care is the most effective and efficient system so far.

And please give me some (non-partisan) figures proving its the "largest factor in the United States" pushing up costs. I find that extremely hard to believe and it flys in the face of logic.

	03-02-2005 07:40									#45
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This is more a factor of how expensive healthcare is in the US rather than a 'lack' of government provision.

Because US healthcare costs so much the government there has to provide less cover for the same amount of money - it is interesting to note that most western governments spend very a similar share of national income on healthcare:

% of GDP spent by government on healthcare:

United States: 6.6%
European Union: 6.9%
Japan: 6.4%
Canada: 6.7%
Australia: 6.2%

Source: OECD Health Data 2004

	03-02-2005 07:41									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Ming... it's well over 1% of the US population

Current US population estimate = 295,384,226
1 % of that is 2,953,842 not 350,000

	03-02-2005 07:41									#47
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn I'm a commie? I'm a centrist who happens to believe that universal health care is the most effective and efficient system so far. And please give me some (non-partisan) figures proving its the "largest factor in the United States" pushing up costs. I find that extremely hard to believe and it flys in the face of logic.

Your inclinations for "universal" health care shows you are far off to the left. I'm in the center, you aren't. It is that simple. Socialised healthcare would be a total disaster. Universal health care IS NOT the most effective and efficent system so far. That's a bam.

	03-02-2005 07:41									#48
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350 000 = households, not individuals.

	03-02-2005 07:42									#49
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Not that I think it would reach 1%, but probably close to half a percent

	03-02-2005 07:43									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident being a doctor is one of the most challenging careers one can take. You don't think they deserve the money they make? It takes them years just to pay off their costs for college and med school. what you are implying is communism. Where doctors make the same as the rest of us.

I'm not implying communism in the least. Are public schools communism? Is the library a communist institution? Of course not. Public does not equal communist.

And why can't you have high payed doctors in a universal system? All you're doing is replacing the middle man. In one case, you pay the government and they pay the hospitals. In another case you pay a company and they pay the hospital. Either way the hospital and the doctors get paid. Nothing else changes... besides the fact that everyone gets the care they need.

	03-02-2005 07:43									#51
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse 350 000 = households, not individuals.

I know

But for it to be over 1%, the average household size of those going bankrupt would have to be 8.4 people...

I don't think so

	03-02-2005 07:44									#52
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A universal socialized health care system as it is showed, drives down wages paid to doctors. That is how it is. It moreso goes to structural requirements. This kind of example is in Europe, where doctors are paid far less then here in the US.

	03-02-2005 07:48									#53
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So?

What kind of twisted reasoning is that?

	03-02-2005 07:49									#54
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Ming defending bankruptcy and republicans.

doesn't matter if it is less than 1%, it's still a lot of people.

	03-02-2005 07:52									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo A universal socialized health care system as it is showed, drives down wages paid to doctors. That is how it is. It moreso goes to structural requirements. This kind of example is in Europe, where doctors are paid far less then here in the US.

Yes, and thats a drawback. But its a pretty small one. Wages can go up if the government is willing to pay them... there's no absolute saying it has to be low.

And so what if a doctor doesn't make 200k a year. Who cares? I'd rather have lower paid doctors and everyone going to them than the reverse...

quote: Your inclinations for "universal" health care shows you are far off to the left. I'm in the center, you aren't. It is that simple. Socialised healthcare would be a total disaster. Universal health care IS NOT the most effective and efficent system so far. That's a bam.

You know, even the Conservative Party in Canada supports public health care. You make them look like communists, and they're pretty out there at times. You're very right wing, dude. But thats not the point....

Prove that the US for-profit system is more efficient if you don't believe me. Here's my proof, and I can find alot more. I bet you can't find anything proving your side:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...7&dopt=Abstract

Edit: And Fez, only in the US is supporting Universal health care considered "left wing". Everywhere else its a non-issue. Its like calling non-racists "left wing". Health care is a right in most industrial countries.

	03-02-2005 07:53									#56
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Who cares? They're all collectively guilty for allowing a system that doesn't work, so it's just they suffer under it.

	03-02-2005 07:55									#57
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Government intervention in healthcare is far more likely because of the way the market for healthcare operates.

Healthcare professionals have to be very knowledgable about their subject, and are almost always far more knowledgable than their customers.
When the seller of a product or service has a large advantage over the buyer you usually get a more imperfect market than normal.

This can easily be seen by the fact that Doctors etc. are not allowed to practice unless they belong to the professional bodies - which have far more in common with the medieval guild system than with a modern market economy - which is a clear restraint on trade which boosts the incomes of doctors, but one which the vast majority of people are willing to pay for in return for the trust they have to place in people selling them the service.


Free trade works far less well in healthcare than in most other markets, the question is would government intervention (which will be inevitable to some extent or another) be better, I think that it depends greatly on how the government intervenes and whether it can try and make the market work better than it currently does.

	03-02-2005 07:56									#58
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Yes, and thats a drawback. But its a pretty small one. Wages can go up if the government is willing to pay them... there's no absolute saying it has to be low. And so what if a doctor doesn't make 200k a year. Who cares? I'd rather have lower paid doctors and everyone going to them than the reverse...

It is a huge drawback. What if these doctors are paid so little, they don't want to do their job? Being a doctor is a difficult, often gruesome job and I believe they deserve a better wage then what a universal healthcare system can afford.

quote: You know, even the Conservative Party in Canada supports public health care. You make them look like communists, and they're pretty out there at times. You're very right wing, dude. But thats not the point.... Prove that the US for-profit system is more efficient if you don't believe me. Here's my proof, and I can find alot more. I bet you can't find anything proving your side: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...7&dopt=Abstract

Canada is Canada. We are talking about the United States, not some damn socialist state.

	03-02-2005 08:00									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo It is a huge drawback. What if these doctors are paid so little, they don't want to do their job? Being a doctor is a difficult, often gruesome job and I believe they deserve a better wage then what a universal healthcare system can afford.

Yeah, so? Maybe you'll actually get people becoming doctors who - gasp- want to be doctors! Not everyone practices medicine because they want two porches...

quote: Canada is Canada. We are talking about the United States, not some damn socialist state.

Do you ever listen to yourself? How is that an argument? Are these the types of points you make when you write papers for school? What kind of marks do you get?

	03-02-2005 08:04									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Leave it to the high-school dropout to be concerned about everyone else paying their bills for them.

Leave it to the microsoft prostitute to jump at a chance for snobbery.