03-02-2005 08:07									#61
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Yeah, so? Maybe you'll actually get people becoming doctors who - gasp- want to be doctors! Not everyone practices medicine because they want two porches...

Like it or not, in this world money is important.

You haven't supported universal healthcare which is left wing B.S.

	03-02-2005 08:09									#62
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Actually, the link he provided was quite strong support of universal healthcare.

You provide NOTHING! You criminal!

	03-02-2005 08:10									#63
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quote: Originally posted by el freako Government intervention in healthcare is far more likely because of the way the market for healthcare operates. Healthcare professionals have to be very knowledgable about their subject, and are almost always far more knowledgable than their customers. When the seller of a product or service has a large advantage over the buyer you usually get a more imperfect market than normal. This can easily be seen by the fact that Doctors etc. are not allowed to practice unless they belong to the professional bodies - which have far more in common with the medieval guild system than with a modern market economy - which is a clear restraint on trade which boosts the incomes of doctors, but one which the vast majority of people are willing to pay for in return for the trust they have to place in people selling them the service. Free trade works far less well in healthcare than in most other markets, the question is would government intervention (which will be inevitable to some extent or another) be better, I think that it depends greatly on how the government intervenes and whether it can try and make the market work better than it currently does.

Good post. I think another factor is that the market demand could never support significant competition. the cost of facilities and education is so high that providers need to operate at high capacity.

	03-02-2005 08:13									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo It is a huge drawback. What if these doctors are paid so little, they don't want to do their job? Being a doctor is a difficult, often gruesome job and I believe they deserve a better wage then what a universal healthcare system can afford.

What the hell are you talking about? A universal heathcare system can afford more than a free market.

	03-02-2005 08:59									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Actually, the link he provided was quite strong support of universal healthcare. You provide NOTHING! You criminal!

Now Boris... Stop Fezing on Fez.

	03-02-2005 09:46									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Ming... it's well over 1% of the US population and baring in mind the likely economic state of the people affected (the poorest and those most likely to suffer from ill health) I think it's appalling.

350,000 is 0,1%, not 1%, philosopher.

	03-02-2005 09:47									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo It isn't the sole cause, but the largest cause. It is that simple. Government controlled health care only needs to cover its costs? Yeah, you want the government controlling your health? Because I certainly don't. I think socialist healthcare would be a massive disaster for a country the size of the US.

You want an insurance company controlling your health?

	03-02-2005 09:49									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo It is a huge drawback. What if these doctors are paid so little, they don't want to do their job? Being a doctor is a difficult, often gruesome job and I believe they deserve a better wage then what a universal healthcare system can afford.

You could at least try to make decent arguments. People in "socialist" countries are lining up at medicine faculties, even though... god forbid... they'll be making 150K a year instead of 400K.

	03-02-2005 09:50									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ming So 350,000 personal bankruptcies

No, there are 1.4 million bankruptcies. Half that is 700,000 is for medical bills and 75% of those had insurance.

The linky says, "About half cited medical causes, which indicates that 1.9 to 2.2 million Americans (filers plus dependents) experienced medical bankruptcy." So that's close to .67% to .75% of the American population, which is actually a rather large number, almost one out of a hundred.

	03-02-2005 09:54									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia once again, if they had saved money, they would be able to withstand this shock. second of all, you dont lose your job when you get sick/injured. show me a worker that got fired because of an illness or injury, and ill give you the number to mark geragos.

I don't think you understand how insanley high some of these medical bills can get.

We are talking several hundred thousand or even over a million dollars in bills.

	03-02-2005 09:54									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident national healthcare system

	03-02-2005 09:58									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I don't think you understand how insanley high some of these medical bills can get. We are talking several hundred thousand or even over a million dollars in bills.

That's the exception. The average out-of-pocket costs for someone with insurance was more than $13K, while interestingly enough, for those without insuance it was slightly over $10K. Hence my point that not only is our system of private insurance not protecting us, it even costs more than not having insurance.

	03-02-2005 10:00									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo The reason why our health care costs are up is because of lawsuits. Even insurance can't cover the costs because doctors are forced to push up charges... it all falls down to bogus law-suits.

I hope you never have a botched surgery!

	03-02-2005 10:15									#74
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's the exception.

True

quote: The average out-of-pocket costs for someone with insurance was more than $13K, while interestingly enough, for those without insuance it was slightly over $10K. Hence my point that not only is our system of private insurance not protecting us, it even costs more than not having insurance.

Strange.

	03-02-2005 10:19									#75
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More and more, I lean towards a more active role of the government in health care. This comes not just from stuff like this, but from my work, where I hear from dozens of people each day who get screwed by their health insurance who won't pay for procedures and the only way they can force the insurance providers to cover necessary procedures is to get an attorney and sue them. They dont' have money for for the lawyer and most lawyers won't take the case (too little money in it).

And restricting law suits isn't the answer. Wait until you or someone you know suffers from malpractice, such as cutting the wrong limb off or leaving a scalpel inside of you before you decide to cut off that route. Negligent doctors SHOULD pay for their mistakes.

	03-02-2005 10:26									#76
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I agree with you Siddiqui, but up to a point, as long as there is malpractice limits.

The IT systems in the whole medical field are really ancient or non existent and those need drastic improvement.

	03-02-2005 10:34									#77
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quote: as long as there is malpractice limits.

Nope, not going there. Bad doctors need their feet held to the fire. They already get away with too much. And besides, they are absolutely HORRIBLE when it comes to maintaining their practices' pension plans .

	03-02-2005 10:41									#78
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The problem is that it's not the doctors who ultimatley pay that bill.

	03-02-2005 10:43									#79
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So the solution is let them off scot free? They already get off too lightly.

	03-02-2005 10:47									#80
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First of all that's not what I said so don't even try to start setting up a strawman. I said LIMITS.

LIMITS != "letting them off scot free"

Do you really think that awarding someone 2 million dollars versus awarding them 25 million dollars really makes that big of a difference besides putting a financial strain on people who have nothing to do with the case in question?

We are talking about the law of diminishing returns here.

	03-02-2005 11:10									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Like it or not, in this world money is important.

So why is anyone not a doctor then?

Actually forget that, why are we not all millionaires?

Clearly 50k/year jobs are in demand, Fez. Your argument isn't holding up...

	03-02-2005 11:12									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Actually, the link he provided was quite strong support of universal healthcare.

Yeah, I thought so too, but apparantly:

quote: Canada is Canada. We are talking about the United States, not some damn socialist state.

	03-02-2005 11:17									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia funny how in canada you have to wait forever to get a non-life threatning surgery done.

Or-- if you have the money, we remain free to pop across the border and pay the same as the Americans

	03-02-2005 11:21									#84
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn So why is anyone not a doctor then? Actually forget that, why are we not all millionaires? Clearly 50k/year jobs are in demand, Fez. Your argument isn't holding up...

umm, in case it isn't clear, not everyone has the ability to be a doctor. Or I'd be one.

The fact is people are not created equal. Some people were created to be slobs posting in an internet forum while working some dead end job. (that's me )

	03-02-2005 11:36									#85
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On lawsuits

Three things help the Canadian situation

1. The Canadian medical protective Association insures almost all doctors nation wide and is very aggressive in the defense of doctors. Apparently no case is settled to "save money" or because its "cheaper than going to trial"

2. canadian courts have imposed limits on the amounts ANYONE can get for pain and suffering. The maximum is now just over 300K. People can still get large awards for lost income or needed care BUT it does tend to limit awards quite a bit as opposed to the US

3. canadian courts have systems where losing plaintiffs MAY have to pay the court costs of the successful defendent. It eliminates pretty much all frivolous loitigation

	03-02-2005 11:38									#86
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Oh and canadian doctors do quite well-- they are just not among the super-wealthy like in the US-- its a very good living

	03-02-2005 11:47									#87
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Plus their debt loads tend to be much lighter on leaving med school

	03-02-2005 12:13									#88
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's the exception. The average out-of-pocket costs for someone with insurance was more than $13K, while interestingly enough, for those without insuance it was slightly over $10K. Hence my point that not only is our system of private insurance not protecting us, it even costs more than not having insurance.

Interesting.
In Germany Health Insurances cover all costs for any treatment which is deemed necessary from a medical standpoint.
You only have to pay 10 € for every different Doctor you visit per quarter year and a little fee for every medicine you have to buy (normally less than 10 € per medicine)
In case of dentists they even encourage people to visit them twice a year by lowering the costs you have to pay for artificial dentures when you finally need them (as they say it costs them less to have your teeth regularly checked [and saved in case of Karies] than have their customers only go to the dentists when it is too late and the teeth have to be extracted)
The highest costs you have here are normally from prothesis and aids (hearing aids, glasses etc. ) as for these the Insurances cover only costs up to a certain amount.

Therefore you rarely have people go bancrupt because of the costs for healthcare.

But of course, we also donīt have excessive lawsuits because of malpractice and doctors donīt have to pay a fortune for their study (but, after study, are forced to work in regular clinics for some time, before they are allowed to open a practice on their own).

	03-02-2005 12:32									#89
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quote: quote: The average out-of-pocket costs for someone with insurance was more than $13K, while interestingly enough, for those without insuance it was slightly over $10K. Hence my point that not only is our system of private insurance not protecting us, it even costs more than not having insurance. Strange.

Not strange at all. Those without insurance can't pay and end up dead.


US resistance to modernization in the last 15 years (the years that I'm old enough to remember) is incredible. There's been such little investment in either infrastructure or public services that it makes me wonder when it's all going to catch up on us.

	03-02-2005 12:42									#90
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I agree, most of our public infrastructure is really outdated.

Schools, roads, hospitals, bascially everything that has to do with the fabric of social services.

It's espeically bad here in California.

I notice that most of this stuff was built around 1960-1970.

After that there seems to be a dry spell of infrastucture improvements.