16-02-2005 01:01									#61
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Summary of Foxman's position: 'It's okay to criticize Israel if you criticize other countries for the same thing. Be that as it may, criticism of Zionism is anti-Semitism.'

That's a pretty high bar on the former (but I pass that test). I reject his 2nd statement on the grounds that I oppose all nationalism. I find the idea that Israel is a Jewish state as respulsive as I find the idea that France is a state for the French.

I have a problem with the first in that as Israel is a semi-democratic nation, it's going to be held to a higher standard. We expect more from democracies, and when they fail to meet that bar, we are not just upset, we are disappointed.

	16-02-2005 01:04									#62
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quote: I find the idea that Israel is a Jewish state as respulsive as I find the idea that France is a state for the French.

So do I.

	16-02-2005 01:04									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Isn't the university a place of open discussion? I'd never get rid of those I deemed racists, unless they began to committ battery against others.

So you defend Ward Churchill against the attempts to throw him out of UC?

	16-02-2005 01:06									#64
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quote: I have a problem with the first in that as Israel is a semi-democratic nation, it's going to be held to a higher standard. We expect more from democracies, and when they fail to meet that bar, we are not just upset, we are disappointed.

That's true, but there is another reason. Israel is on the news morning, noon and night, so people are more familiar with what goes on there than they are about other places (like Kurdistan).

	16-02-2005 01:06									#65
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quote: What if said person was.

If he was subject to criminal penalties elsewhere and was on the run, that is something else entirely. You said you would be "active in getting rid of campus racists", which looks to be anyone that say, believes one race isn't as good as another.

	16-02-2005 01:07									#66
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So you defend Ward Churchill against the attempts to throw him out of UC?

Yep, at least for his statements.

Now, if its true that he lied about his Native American heritage when being hired and that was a big reason in hiring him (for Native American studies classes, IIRC), then that is a reasonable reason for firing him.

But for his views? No way.

	16-02-2005 01:08									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Yes, you. Not Jewish people in general (whom you sometimes claim to speak for). LOTM - No, i dont. Im quite clear that there is a range of political positions and religious positions among Jews. I have often discussed Israeli politics, expressing my fascination with the different viewpoints there. I have also disagreed with some of our Israeli and diaspora Jewish posters. Sometimes there are no other Jews posting on something that i think is important, and im forced into a role of spokesperson. Believe me, I dont want it. And I stand by those remarks. LOTM - remarks about me that are untrue. Really, I come to poly to talk about games, politics, etc. Like anyone else. But when I feel my positions attacked, or things i know to be false said, i feel a need to counter. I find your attempts (in various threads over the years) to insinuate that people like me who criticize Israel are somehow anti-semitic LOTM - i dont know your motives. I think some attacks on Israel ARE antisemitic, or use antisemitic imagery, etc. there are Others which may not be antisemitic, but are nonetheless unfair and vile. I try however, to attack the position, and not the poster. If i fail in that, im sorry. annoying, untrue and offensive. LOTM - then disagree. Frankly I find some of the things you say to be borderline racist, but I don't make that much of a big deal out of it, because I don't really know you. LOTM - You could of course observe my arguments against racist positions on the threads weve had about race. But of course, you are free to disagree.

LOTM - Ive spent more time arguing against anti-arab racism on jewish sites and on conservative sites than ive spent arguing with you aggie. Although i must admit ive never tried to get an antiarab racist fired - i am not part of any institutions where antiarab racism is tolerated. I could claim thats a matter of choice, but id be lying - while i despise the synagogues where Kahanism is tolerated, i dont feel real comfortable in those places politics aside.

You will note my avatar is an Arab woman.

	16-02-2005 01:08									#68
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quote: If he was subject to criminal penalties elsewhere and was on the run, that is something else entirely. You said you would be "active in getting rid of campus racists", which looks to be anyone that say, believes one race isn't as good as another.

There are probably lots of people like that. It's when they start belting that crap out in lectures that it ceases to be of any academic merit.

Having said that: I'd set the bar pretty high before I'd campaign against someone.

	16-02-2005 01:09									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That's true, but there is another reason. Israel is on the news morning, noon and night, so people are more familiar with what goes on there than they are about other places (like Kurdistan).

That, in and of itself, doesn't invalidate Foxman's position. Why is Israel on the news morning, noon, and night? Because it's a Jewish state. If anything, that supports his assertion that Israel is singled out for special criticism. Tibet, on the other hand, is not on the news all the time, but you can be sure a lot of people kvetch about it.

	16-02-2005 01:10									#70
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UK context-

The "Standard" emerges from the same stable as the "Daily Mail". The "Daily Mail" is a nasty little right-wing rag, that was an ardent supporter of the Nazis throughout much of the 1930's- switching to an appeasement stance when even they couldn't justify maintaining their support any longer.

It has a loooooooong history of anti-semitism until the post-war era. It's still a nasty piece of work now.

	16-02-2005 01:10									#71
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quote: You will note my avatar is an Arab woman.

Every right wing Islamophobe in American probably likes that particular picture.

What about a pic of Edward Said?

	16-02-2005 01:11									#72
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Given that the ADL kept a list of anti-Zionist organizations, spied on them, and gave that info to the FBI in the 1990s, it's not hard to guess. The ADL does some great anti-racist work, but they also consider anti-Zionism to be anti-Semitism and have worked hard to quash criticism of Israel. This is neither here nor there. Both Aggie and Kamrat X made some stupid insensitive remarks and ought to apologize for them, rather than dithering and going on the offensive.

I can agree on the fact that my statement in post number 3 was poorly phrased and missed the mark a bit. But I already apologized for that. Iīm not doing it again. I then clarified my position a bit, and thatīs nothing I will apologize for.

I shouldīve remembered that these issues are far to sensitive to discuss in any way. Satirically or otherwise. Too much PC-ness...

	16-02-2005 01:13									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X I shouldīve remembered that these issues are far to sensitive to discuss in any way. Satirically or otherwise. Too much PC-ness...

When I was a kid, I slapped a girl (not hard but in a friendly sort of way) on her sunburn in jest. I thought it was funny. I was wrong. You don't poke an open sore, even in jest.

	16-02-2005 01:13									#74
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quote: That, in and of itself, doesn't invalidate Foxman's position. Why is Israel on the news morning, noon, and night? Because it's a Jewish state.

Because it is in the world's most important resource area is probably more like it. Plus the press is still pretty free there. Plus there are a lot of Jewish people in Western countries - we get a lot of British news in NZ because there are so many Brits there - and we get more Asian news now that there are a lot more Asian people there.

It's funny, but the Israeli papers tend to be a lot saner than US ones when it comes to talking about the troubles.

	16-02-2005 01:15									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: You will note my avatar is an Arab woman. Every right wing Islamophobe in American probably likes that particular picture. LOTM - as someone who browses right wing american websites that have their share of islamophobes, i can tell you thats NOT true. The muslim haters are convinced its a mistake to try and deomcratize Iraq - they think the election results are a disaster. You are confusing Islamophobe with neocon. What about a pic of Edward Said?

LOTM - i dont happen to agree with his point of view. Is that racist?

	16-02-2005 01:15									#76
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quote: Don't poke an open wound, even in jest.

Come on. A Jewish student of mine used to say, "You shouldn't persecute us Jews; it only encourages us."

I still think that was very witty.

	16-02-2005 01:15									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: That, in and of itself, doesn't invalidate Foxman's position. Why is Israel on the news morning, noon, and night? Because it's a Jewish state. Because it is in the world's most important resource area is probably more like it.

How much attention has been paid to the fighting in Yemen?

	16-02-2005 01:16									#78
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quote: LOTM - i dont happen to agree with his point of view. Is that racist?

Absolutely. Now you must repent.

	16-02-2005 01:17									#79
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quote: How much attention has been paid to the fighting in Yemen?

How many of them are white and rich? Or have friends who are white and rich?

	16-02-2005 01:17									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It's funny, but the Israeli papers tend to be a lot saner than US ones when it comes to talking about the troubles.

you will note i often quote (dovish) Haaretz. Sometimes i agree with them, sometimes i disagree. What i dont find in them is a certain kind of nastiness i often see in the euro press, and even sometimes in the US.

	16-02-2005 01:17									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Come on. A Jewish student of mine used to say, "You shouldn't persecute us Jews; it only encourages us." I still think that was very witty.

It was, but it's one thing to poke your own wound, and another for someone else to do it. It's kinda like making fun of your own family. You can do it, but if an outsider does it, you get defensive.

	16-02-2005 01:19									#82
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quote: It was, but it's one thing to poke your own wound, and another for someone else to do it. It's kinda like making fun of your own family. You can do it, but if an outsider does it, you get defensive.

I disagree. I think it is silly for people to make fun of themselves and not let others do so (with the reciprocatory proviso).

Making a joke of our silly differences helps us to deal with them.

	16-02-2005 01:21									#83
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Not while it's an open sore.

	16-02-2005 01:23									#84
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It is for some, but not others. Those who want to wallow in self pity forever are doing no one any good.

In any case, race is an illusion, and the sooner we mock it to death, the better.

	16-02-2005 01:30									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It is for some, but not others. Those who want to wallow in self pity forever are doing no one any good. LOTM - my mother in law still has physical ailments from her experiences in 1944 - 1945. Go to hell. In any case, race is an illusion, and the sooner we mock it to death, the better.

Jews are not a race.

	16-02-2005 01:33									#86
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quote: However, when that criticism is directed at the entire Jewish people or questions the legitimacy of the Jewish state, it is an expression of anti-Semitism. '

So, if I questioned the legitimacy of, let's say, the North Korean state, I'd be a racist? The Taiwanese state? The Abkhaz state?

	16-02-2005 01:33									#87
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara When I was a kid, I slapped a girl (not hard but in a friendly sort of way) on her sunburn in jest. I thought it was funny. I was wrong. You don't poke an open sore, even in jest.

But the pro-Israel and Zionist groups are constantly poking at that sore themselves. Shoving it in our faces, lest we forget that a horrendous injustice was being committed against the jewish people. The article quoted by lotm says it all. "All criticism of the state of Israel is considered racist and anti-semitic". This is unfair and itīs really the ultimate accusation. There is not a chance in hell to really defend yourself from that. The holocaust was horrible and I shouldnīt even have to say that. But it does not give loud mouthed groups the right to use it as an excuse to win arguments and labelling all opposition racist and anti-semitic.

The same goes with the accusations of being a nazi. Itīs the ultimate evil and is therefore also the ultimate insult. Iīm pretty sure Ken Livingston wasnīt comparing the reporter to a nazi. But he was fed up and used the ultimate insult. Was it ill concieved and in poor taste? Yes, it was. But I can understand him, he wanted to do maximum damage.

	16-02-2005 01:39									#88
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Kamrat X


But the pro-Israel and Zionist groups are constantly poking at that sore themselves. Shoving it in our faces, lest we forget that a horrendous injustice was being committed against the jewish people. The article quoted by lotm says it all. "All criticism of the state of Israel is considered racist and anti-semitic"

LOTM - no, thats the opposite of what is says. "I tell the questioner that everyone has the right to criticize Israel"


As for shoving it in anyones faces it was NOT the reporter who raised the holocaust, it was Livingstone. If you attack a Jew and he mentions the holocaust, the Jew is at fault. If someone attacking a jew mentions the holocaust, and the jew complains, the jew is at fault. The jew is always at fault, no matter what he does or says.

So we might as well ignore folks like you, since your reaction will be the same whatever we do or say.

	16-02-2005 01:40									#89
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And another thought: How come we accept words like "FemNazis" and "Grammar Nazis" without anyone even lifting an eyebrow? If someone wrote "SioNazi" in a thread title he would be banned so fast his head would spin...

	16-02-2005 01:41									#90
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@lord of the mark: Could you please format your quotes and replies like a normal person? I do not want to put you on my ignore list just because your posts are a pain to read visually.