16-02-2005 03:27									#121
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What "treatment" is he refering to?

	16-02-2005 03:29									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: some are, some arent. I know what you were called during the anti Apartheid struggle if you pointed out that Buthelezi opposed the ANC and its agenda for South Africa. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous. Although it is funny that someone who supports an apartheid state would wish to bring up this example.

I dont support any apartheid state. I support Israel, where Israeli arabs have the same civil and political rights as Israeli Jews. (now the situation in the territories, , pre-Oslo, where Palestinians lived under Israeli rule but did not have Israeli citizenship, while Israeli settlers who moved from Israel to to the territories, retained their rights, was profoundly troubling, and was leading toward apartheid. Which is one reason that Yithak Rabin agreed to withdrawl from most of the territories - unfortunately he was murdered, by a racist Jew, for his brave acts, at a time when a final agreement with the Palestinians had not yet been reached. However the torch was taken up by Ehud Barak, who tried to reach an agreement that would have given the Palestinians there own state - but that was rejected by Yasser Arafat.

Barak was succeeded by Sharon, whom one could have suspected of wanting to hang on to the territories - one couldnt know if his blaming arafat was real or an excuse as long as Arafat was alive. But now Arafat is dead, and Sharon is being tested - and so far, he seems to be moving firmly toward peace.


But what does this have to do with Ken Livingstone, again?

	16-02-2005 03:31									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The whole conversation: quote: Ken Livingstone made his comments to Oliver Finegold when the reporter questioned him at a party to celebrate Chris Smith "coming out" as the first openly gay MP 20 years ago. This is a transcript of their conversation: Oliver Finegold: Mr Livingstone, Evening Standard. How did tonight go? Livingstone: How awful for you. Have you thought of having treatment? Finegold: How did tonight go? Livingstone: Have you thought of having treatment? Finegold: Was it a good party? What does it mean for you? Livingstone: What did you do before? Were you a German war criminal? Finegold: No, I'm Jewish, I wasn't a German war criminal and I'm actually quite offended by that. So, how did tonight go? Livingstone: Ah right, well you might be [Jewish], but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard, you are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you? Finegold: Great, I have you on record for that. So, how was tonight? Livingstone: It's nothing to do you with you because your paper is a load of scumbags and reactionary bigots. Finegold: I'm a journalist and I'm doing my job. I'm only asking for a comment. Livingstone: Well, work for a paper that doesn't have a record of supporting facism. Livingstone then walked off. Red Ken must be a mega-bigot given the party he was at. .

and where exactly did the reporter suggest he was a bigot for the party he attended? He asked how it went. WTF is wrong with that. The normal answer would be "it went fine, we're proud of the progress we've made on human rights in this country"

	16-02-2005 03:32									#124
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Being in a mental hospital I think.

From what I've read, it looks as if Livingstone was trying to accuse this journo of being a fascist and a racist. Presumably, calling him a concentration camp guard was meant to be a deep insult, and one that the journo probably deserved given the editorial standards of his paper.

i.e. the context is: "You complain about being called offensive names when your paper does nothing but publish bigoted rot - hypocrite".

I see that Livingstone has let a full broadside rip at the paper since then. More power to him.

	16-02-2005 03:33									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: the palestinians have suffered historically, and deserve a state of their own. That has nothing to do with Ken livingstone, or concentration camp guards. See thats why folks like Foxman see a link between antizionism and antisemitism - half the time the "antizionists" are really obsessed with Jews, the holocaust, and jews complaints about antisemitism without regard to mideast politics. Note that the nasty comments on this thread happened well before any mention was made of Israel or Palestine. That tends to get thrown in later. That sounds like paranoia to me.

It just happened in front of your face and you deny it?

	16-02-2005 03:37									#126
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quote: and where exactly did the reporter suggest he was a bigot for the party he attended? He asked how it went. WTF is wrong with that. The normal answer would be "it went fine, we're proud of the progress we've made on human rights in this country"

You don't understand Dude. Try living in England and reading those papers. They're bastards of the first order, who hound people like Livingstone and print trash about them. They routinely spout the most vile bigotry against minorities and have a terrible record of support for fascism.

Don't try to make this about you. It seems that Livingstone was basically calling the guy out as a hypocrite. The rest has just been spun.

This is evident by Livingstone making a point of accusing the paper of supporting fascism - it did. That puts the controversial comments in context.

All in all it makes a lot more sense now. So stop whining, and find some real racists to moan about.

	16-02-2005 03:37									#127
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Seems to me that Livingstone had bit of bad luck, and didn't see the warning lights in time.

	16-02-2005 03:38									#128
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quote: It just happened in front of your face and you deny it?

Do you get paranoid about everything Fez and co say about us?

I don't.

	16-02-2005 03:38									#129
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It just happened in front of your face and you deny it?

I think he missed the "half the time" - he responded as if id said "all the time" which i deliberately did not. Just shows you cant win with some people, I guess.

	16-02-2005 03:39									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: and where exactly did the reporter suggest he was a bigot for the party he attended? He asked how it went. WTF is wrong with that. The normal answer would be "it went fine, we're proud of the progress we've made on human rights in this country" You don't understand Dude. Try living in England and reading those papers. They're bastards of the first order, who hound people like Livingstone and print trash about them. They routinely spout the most vile bigotry against minorities and have a terrible record of support for fascism. Don't try to make this about you. It seems that Livingstone was basically calling the guy out as a hypocrite. The rest has just been spun. This is evident by Livingstone making a point of accusing the paper of supporting fascism - it did. That puts the controversial comments in context. All in all it makes a lot more sense now. So stop whining, and find some real racists to moan about.

This post is how this thread should have gone, without any personal comments about people or Jews.

	16-02-2005 03:39									#131
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quote: Seems to me that Livingstone had bit of bad luck, and didn't see the warning lights in time.

I think he's doing it on purpose to confront the Mail group. About time someone did - they are vile.

	16-02-2005 03:41									#132
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quote: This post is how this thread should have gone, without any personal comments about people or Jews.

LOTM deserves to be commented upon. He thinks I am an anti-semite and insinuates so whenever he can. Screw him.

I'm not responsible for Kamrat's comments.

	16-02-2005 03:42									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon [ Don't try to make this about you. .

the poster who put jews in the thread title made it about me - and not just me.

	16-02-2005 03:44									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Seems to me that Livingstone had bit of bad luck, and didn't see the warning lights in time. I think he's doing it on purpose to confront the Mail group. About time someone did - they are vile.

Then he's stupid. There's plenty of ways to insult Jewish journos that don't open you up for anti-semite charges the way this did.

	16-02-2005 03:44									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: It just happened in front of your face and you deny it? Do you get paranoid about everything Fez and co say about us?

It wouldn't be paranoid to note that he says such things nor to point out he's a jerk for saying such things. LotM wasn't being paranoid when he described the course this thread took. He was just describing it.

	16-02-2005 03:45									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: This post is how this thread should have gone, without any personal comments about people or Jews. LOTM deserves to be commented upon. He thinks I am an anti-semite and insinuates so whenever he can. Screw him. .

Ive tried throughout to respond throughout to the material in individual posts, and not to the poster. If there are instance where I havent, let me know.


Im not going to discuss your motivations - i can think of many besides antisemitism, not all of them complimentary. But this isnt about you.

	16-02-2005 03:47									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: This post is how this thread should have gone, without any personal comments about people or Jews. LOTM deserves to be commented upon. He thinks I am an anti-semite and insinuates so whenever he can. Screw him.

And you disproved him how? I was mortified by both you and Kamrat X's comments in this thread.

	16-02-2005 03:52									#138
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nm

	16-02-2005 04:02									#139
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quote: And you disproved him how? I was mortified by both you and Kamrat X's comments in this thread

Good for you.

I don't see anything particularly anti-semitic in objecting to LOTM shoving his Zionist narcissism in my face. It would be just as much of a pain in the ass if he was Catholic.

I don't feel any compulsion to think better of people just because they are Jewish, or any less for that matter.

	16-02-2005 04:13									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: And you disproved him how? I was mortified by both you and Kamrat X's comments in this thread Good for you. I don't see anything particularly anti-semitic in objecting to LOTM shoving his Zionist narcissism in my face. .

but of course at the time the objectionable posts occured, i had said nothing Zionist. I was expressing sentiments a non-zionist jew could have shared.

This is sounding kinda like the muslim sermons that talk about muhammed defeating the "Zionists" in Medina, at a time when there were no Zionists in arabia, but plenty of Jews.

NOTE well - I dont know your motivation for this use of language, and it need not be due to antisemitism. Language habits can take on their own lives, i think. Sometimes "zionist" seems to not mean "Supporter of Israel" nor does it mean "jew" - rather it means ANY assertive Jew - an antizionist Yiddish bundist would be called a Zionist, for aggressively asserting Jewish communal rights.

	16-02-2005 04:15									#141
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"People must ask themselves why this earthquake occurred in this area and not others... Whoever examines these areas discovers that they are tourism areas....where the forbidden acts are widespread, as well as alcohol consumption, drug use and acts of abomination... Don’t they deserve punishment from Allah?"


the words of a sheik Mayor livingstone invited to a conference and described as a "moderate".

	16-02-2005 04:18									#142
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quote: but of course at the time the objectionable posts occured, i had said nothing Zionist. I was expressing sentiments a non-zionist jew could have shared.

If you bothered reading back, you would see that I made reference to the fact that this was a general phenomenon, extending beyond this thread.

Your wonderful article from the ADL proved that admirably.

quote: This is sounding kinda like the muslim sermons that talk about muhammed defeating the "Zionists" in Medina, at a time when there were no Zionists in arabia, but plenty of Jews

So, I'm in league with Islamist clerics now?

I have to go outside; the rain has doused my burning cross.

	16-02-2005 04:21									#143
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The thriving tourist industry of Aceh being well-known ...

Well, the scary thing is that Livingstone might be right about him being a moderate.

	16-02-2005 04:29									#144
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quote: Well, the scary thing is that Livingstone might be right about him being a moderate.

He's the mayor of London. He probably has to deal with a bunch of people he doesn't like - that's politics. Jeez the Queen once entertained Mr and Mrs Ceausescu.

What's awful is that you would be hard pressed to find as fervent an anti-racist as Ken Livingstone.

	16-02-2005 04:33									#145
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None of which affects my point, actually.

	16-02-2005 04:37									#146
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quote: None of which affects my point, actually.

Troo.

...twas merely to provide context.

	16-02-2005 05:15									#147
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quote: Red Ken must be a mega-bigot given the party he was at.

No, if he's a bigot, it's because of his comments, not his attendance.

Or are you suggesting that because he was at a party celebrating a gay MP, he couldn't possibly be a bigot? Does this mean a gay person can't be a bigot?

	16-02-2005 05:17									#148
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quote: No, he's a bigot for his comments. Or are you suggesting that because he was at a party celebrating a gay MP, he couldn't possibly be a bigot? Does this mean a gay person can't be a bigot?

Perhaps if you bothered looking at the context of his comments, you would change your mind.

But I strongly doubt it.

	16-02-2005 05:22									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Perhaps if you bothered looking at the context of his comments, you would change your mind.

Hello. Person who originally posted the context to begin with, here.

	16-02-2005 05:30									#150
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A thousand apologies.

It seems plain to me that he wanted to call the guy a Nazi and a hypocrite for working for that paper.

Given the nature of that media group and its history with him, I think that was entirely appropriate.

If he'd just come out and called the guy a Nazi, I would have been inclined to agree with you (and that was my initial impression) - but the fact that the point is the guy works for a "fascist" paper and is only "obeying orders".

If the journo wants to complain about this, what is he doing working for a media group with a history of nazi-loving, anti-semitism and racism?