16-02-2005 06:55									#151
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Despite that the Evening Standard wrote articles supporting facism during the 30's, that doesn't make the Evening Standard of today guilty of the sins of it's fathers.

And even if the Evening Standard or it's owners have been egrigiously disrespectful to Mr Livingstone, that doesn't make it acceptable to start using slurs against a reporter associated with them.

Do you really think a journalist - even a pushy journalist - or a trashy newspaper are comparable to a war criminal or a concentration camp guard?

Do you think Ken Livingstone is comparable to a concentration camp survivor?

The man disrespects the memory of many with his outrageous comparison.

	16-02-2005 15:25									#152
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark If you attack a Jew and he mentions the holocaust, the Jew is at fault. If someone attacking a jew mentions the holocaust, and the jew complains, the jew is at fault. The jew is always at fault, no matter what he does or says.

I'm sorry to inject a little levity here, but this is like a scene in the American version of 'Queer As Folk' where the Jewish lesbian is somewhat inebriated and says: "That's right; blame the Jew," in response to something her gentile partner says.

When in doubt, blame the Jew for their Jewishness- it's a goy thing.



There's no excuse for Livingstone making the comparison to a concentration camp guard once he knew the reporter was Jewish- it's the kind of easy petty offensiveness one expects from NeoNazis and Aryan Brotherhood members not from an elected mayor of London.

All he's done so far by digging his heels in and raking up the past history of the Rothermere Press is show his own stupidity in making the comment in the first place.

It's something the Trotskyite press in the U.K. used to do in the 70s and 80s, with cartoons of Menachem Begin in German uniform, and so on.

One wonders if Mr Livingstone would have used equally offensive language to a reporter of Afro-Caribbean origins, or indeed to a Muslim reporter.

	16-02-2005 15:36									#153
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And you disproved him how? I was mortified by both you and Kamrat X's comments in this thread.

Well, thatīs between you and your PC-ness. I call it as I see it.

	16-02-2005 15:38									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Great, this thread is already going straight to hell...

It started there.

	16-02-2005 15:40									#155
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I'm sure digging through 6 pages of barely-concealed ethnicity bashing and hyper-defensiveness is some people's idea of fun, but for the rest of us is there a summary available?

	16-02-2005 15:47									#156
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom There's no excuse for Livingstone making the comparison to a concentration camp guard once he knew the reporter was Jewish- it's the kind of easy petty offensiveness one expects from NeoNazis and Aryan Brotherhood members not from an elected mayor of London. All he's done so far by digging his heels in and raking up the past history of the Rothermere Press is show his own stupidity in making the comment in the first place. It's something the Trotskyite press in the U.K. used to do in the 70s and 80s, with cartoons of Menachem Begin in German uniform, and so on. One wonders if Mr Livingstone would have used equally offensive language to a reporter of Afro-Caribbean origins, or indeed to a Muslim reporter.

The fact that the reporter was jewish has nothing to do with it as I see it. Livingstone was disgusted with the Evening Standard, thatīs why he lashed out. It was stupid and tactless for a man in his position, but understandable from a human perspective. The cc guard insult wouldīve worked as well against anyone else since noone wants to be compared to a nazi war criminal. The Livingstone affair is not anti-semitism, no matter how loud the pro-Israel groups are screaming.

	16-02-2005 15:48									#157
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm sure digging through 6 pages of barely-concealed ethnicity bashing and hyper-defensiveness is some people's idea of fun, but for the rest of us is there a summary available?

Ken Livingstone made an offensive remark based upon his perception of a reporter's ethnic/cultural/religious affiliation.

Several people (who should have known better) attempted to defend this by saying the British Press can be terrible. They can, but so what?

Then followed the usual logical 'Poly dish-fest with a bit of light Jew blaming as seasoning.


It's a non-Jewish thing- when in doubt, blame the Jew.

	16-02-2005 15:53									#158
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I know I always do.

	16-02-2005 15:54									#159
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm sure digging through 6 pages of barely-concealed ethnicity bashing and hyper-defensiveness is some people's idea of fun, but for the rest of us is there a summary available?

I made a stupid joke and then all hell broke loose. Then more people got involved and it strayed from the original topic to the usual Israel/oppressed jew-debate. PC-ness and hyper-defensiveness reigned supreme. Myself and Agathon tried to defend our position but got whacked on the fingers by Che. The debate continues.

Thatīs it I suppose...

	16-02-2005 15:56									#160
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There was also a borderline interesting discussion of what constitutes anti-semitism/anti-zionism.

	16-02-2005 18:54									#161
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molly

red ken has always been an absolute disgrace, his track record speaks for itself. i hope the labour party takes some action over this, but maybe he's just echoing what other labour members think

	16-02-2005 19:10									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Well, the scary thing is that Livingstone might be right about him being a moderate. He's the mayor of London. He probably has to deal with a bunch of people he doesn't like - that's politics. Jeez the Queen once entertained Mr and Mrs Ceausescu. What's awful is that you would be hard pressed to find as fervent an anti-racist as Ken Livingstone.

I presume the queen, when challenged about mr Ceausescu, didnt go on tear blaming Ceausescus critics as racists, which Red Ken did when he was criticized about this particular sheik - he used much the same rhetoric youve been using.

	16-02-2005 19:11									#163
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Well Blair has called on Livingstone to apologize.

	16-02-2005 19:14									#164
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I'm sorry to inject a little levity here, but this is like a scene in the American version of 'Queer As Folk' where the Jewish lesbian is somewhat inebriated and says: "That's right; blame the Jew," in response to something her gentile partner says. When in doubt, blame the Jew for their Jewishness- it's a goy thing. .

Let me take issue with one thing youve said "its a goy thing" there are too many gentiles who DONT do that, and who stand up to it, for me to let that pass. Guev here being a good example - and of course there are millions of others, around the world. In America, and yes, in Europe. and yes, in the muslim world too.

	16-02-2005 19:15									#165
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as well he might! but it will be interesting to see what happens if red ken refuses to apologise, my guess is not much.

btw did you guys hear about labour's latest poster which had michael howard and oliver letwin's (the tory leader and shadow chancellor, both jewish) faces on the bodies of pigs?

	16-02-2005 19:21									#166
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Damn that avvie. Each time I read of "Guev" I think of Aggie.

	16-02-2005 19:28									#167
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If Ken had just been open about his feelings and calling the man a kike would Agathon and Kamrat be so quick to defend?

	16-02-2005 19:30									#168
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No, cause then it wouldīve been obvious racist slander... But he didnīt.

	16-02-2005 19:32									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X No, cause then it wouldīve been obvious racist slander

And how was this different?

	16-02-2005 19:54									#170
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I thought Ken was in the Socialist Alliance, not Labour.

	16-02-2005 19:57									#171
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc And how was this different?

If he'd compared him to a kapo, it would have been different. The journalist was using the excuse, "I'm just doing my job," to which Ken basically replied, so were the camp guards. The point being not so much, you're a Jew, you should know better, but, just because something is your job doesn't excuse you. Granted, Ken said it attrociously and ought to apologize for his poor choice of words.

	16-02-2005 20:01									#172
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc And how was this different?

As I said before; He didnīt use the cc guard insult because the reporter was a jew, but because he was worked at a right wing rag with fascist tendencies.

	16-02-2005 20:08									#173
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I thought Ken was in the Socialist Alliance, not Labour.

nope, he left the labour party to fight the first election for london mayor after labour selected frank dobson as its candidate, which he won by a landslide. he then rejoined midway through his first term and won a second term by a much narrower margin. and this is why labour will do as little as they can get away with here, because if red ken left and decided to fight for a third term as an independent (or a socialist or whatever), then the next london mayor would be a tory.

the point about this whole thing i think is that if he had made similar comments about a black or muslim reporter then he would have been out on his arse and in all probability a file would be on its way to the CPS.

double standards

	16-02-2005 20:23									#174
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What would it cost Mr.Livingstone(i presume - sorry) to just say 'Look ok i'm sorry'?

would anyone think any less of him?

If you listen to the tapes the reporter made of the incident, it does sound a little like Ken had been drinking(he had been at some party bash after all).

He should just bury the hatchet, it wont make him less of a man or Mayor.

	16-02-2005 23:01									#175
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quote: If Ken had just been open about his feelings and calling the man a kike would Agathon and Kamrat be so quick to defend?

(1) He wouldn't do that.

(2) That would be different.

I see that Blair asked him to apologize. In that case he definitely shouldn't.

In a free country you should always be permitted to call awful people nazis.

	16-02-2005 23:12									#176
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney red ken has always been an absolute disgrace, his track record speaks for itself.

As does his popularity with the public, presumably. Which disgraces did you have in mind?

	16-02-2005 23:17									#177
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney the point about this whole thing i think is that if he had made similar comments about a black or muslim reporter then he would have been out on his arse and in all probability a file would be on its way to the CPS. double standards

What crime do you think would have been committed if the reporter had been black? Any answer other than "none" will be laughed at heartily, before being mercilessly shredded.

It's transparently obvious to anyone reading that it's an attack on the newspaper, not any race or religion. That's why there's no CPS involvement.

	16-02-2005 23:18									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Despite that the Evening Standard wrote articles supporting facism during the 30's, that doesn't make the Evening Standard of today guilty of the sins of it's fathers.

Yes it does. Their record on Gypsies makes grim reading.

	16-02-2005 23:21									#179
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Yeah, defending the Standard, given its record on immigrants, is disgraceful.

The Mail is worse, I picked up a copy the last time I was in the UK and was appalled.

But I'll note that my prediction of people using this for political leverage is panning out.

	17-02-2005 03:20									#180
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Well Ken has never really seen eye-to-eye with the Evening Standard, and hence this recent spat. I still get the feeling that he has been unlucky with his choice of words and who to - a journalist is going to make as big a meal of it as he can...it's what they get paid for. I don't think he's been racist, just very flippant. Although the pressure is definitely on him now with the IOC kicking around in London assessing the 2012 bid...