16-02-2005 01:44									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X And another thought: How come we accept words like "FemNazis" and "Grammar Nazis" without anyone even lifting an eyebrow? If someone wrote "SioNazi" in a thread title he would be banned so fast his head would spin...

I think "Grammar/Spelling Nazi" counts as a jocular usage.

You'll note there was protests against the use of "Feminazi" in Pekka's thread.

Myself, I'm in the habit of refering to high school (Sw: gymnasium) students as gymnazister, so I suppose I've got a very liberal attitude to its use as a joke/insult.

	16-02-2005 01:48									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist quote: However, when that criticism is directed at the entire Jewish people or questions the legitimacy of the Jewish state, it is an expression of anti-Semitism. ' So, if I questioned the legitimacy of, let's say, the North Korean state, I'd be a racist? The Taiwanese state? The Abkhaz state?

according to Foxman it would be. though in the case of korea and taiwan the argument would be that they already have a state - i would love to visit South Israel, or Mainland Israel.

The case of abkhazia is more like the case of Israel pre-48, theres a different reality now.

Look, i see arguments both ways. In the abstract its possible to argue international politics against an existing states existence. I dont mean to rub your face in it, but the reality of what jewish statelessness has meant historically impacts the moral discource, IMHO, though i wouldnt go quite so far as to say ALL antizionism is antisemitism. Much has to do with the rationales, the tone, etc.

Zionists have spent a long time debating whether a Palestinian state is desirable or not, as opposed to Pals becoming part of Jordan, or whatever. We have gone into the cultural relationships of Pals to other arabs, and the recent origin of claims of Pal nationality. I think we have learned that attempts to define another peoples identity and history leads down the path to bigotry - the best thing to happen to Zionism in the last 15 years has been the mainstream withdrawl from trying to define Palestinian identity.

	16-02-2005 01:49									#93
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark [QUOTE] Originally posted by Kamrat X But the pro-Israel and Zionist groups are constantly poking at that sore themselves. Shoving it in our faces, lest we forget that a horrendous injustice was being committed against the jewish people. The article quoted by lotm says it all. "All criticism of the state of Israel is considered racist and anti-semitic" LOTM - no, thats the opposite of what is says. "I tell the questioner that everyone has the right to criticize Israel"

Yes, he says that in the beginning. But then he ends the whole article by saying "All criticism of the state of Israel is considered racist and anti-semitic". Itīs like saying "Iīm not a racist, but..." and then proving in great length that you are...

quote: As for shoving it in anyones faces it was NOT the reporter who raised the holocaust, it was Livingstone. If you attack a Jew and he mentions the holocaust, the Jew is at fault. If someone attacking a jew mentions the holocaust, and the jew complains, the jew is at fault. The jew is always at fault, no matter what he does or says. So we might as well ignore folks like you, since your reaction will be the same whatever we do or say.

Yes, the jews are always at fault, yada, yada, yada. At least you have a country to call you own. Thatīs a hell of a lot more than the palestinians have. So, donīt try to play the "oh, weīre so persecuted and everyone hates us"-game with me. Iīm not buying it.

	16-02-2005 01:49									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist @lord of the mark: Could you please format your quotes and replies like a normal person? I do not want to put you on my ignore list just because your posts are a pain to read visually.

you will note i do this only when things get heated. sometimes i need to just get something out.

	16-02-2005 01:53									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Yes, the jews are always at fault, yada, yada, yada. At least you have a country to call you own. Thatīs a hell of a lot more than the palestinians have. So, donīt try to play the "oh, weīre so persecuted and everyone hates us"-game with me. Iīm not buying it.

the palestinians have suffered historically, and deserve a state of their own. That has nothing to do with Ken livingstone, or concentration camp guards. See thats why folks like Foxman see a link between antizionism and antisemitism - half the time the "antizionists" are really obsessed with Jews, the holocaust, and jews complaints about antisemitism without regard to mideast politics. Note that the nasty comments on this thread happened well before any mention was made of Israel or Palestine. That tends to get thrown in later.

	16-02-2005 01:55									#96
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quote: the palestinians have suffered historically, and deserve a state of their own. That has nothing to do with Ken livingstone, or concentration camp guards. See thats why folks like Foxman see a link between antizionism and antisemitism - half the time the "antizionists" are really obsessed with Jews, the holocaust, and jews complaints about antisemitism without regard to mideast politics. Note that the nasty comments on this thread happened well before any mention was made of Israel or Palestine. That tends to get thrown in later.

That sounds like paranoia to me.

	16-02-2005 01:56									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: the palestinians have suffered historically, and deserve a state of their own. That has nothing to do with Ken livingstone, or concentration camp guards. See thats why folks like Foxman see a link between antizionism and antisemitism - half the time the "antizionists" are really obsessed with Jews, the holocaust, and jews complaints about antisemitism without regard to mideast politics. Note that the nasty comments on this thread happened well before any mention was made of Israel or Palestine. That tends to get thrown in later. That sounds like paranoia to me.

yes obsessive concern with the Jews is often quite paranoid.

	16-02-2005 01:57									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I think "Grammar/Spelling Nazi" counts as a jocular usage.

Yes, but at the same time thereīs this big ass billboard announcing "Jewish related words ahead. The jocolar usage stops here. Or else!"

quote: You'll note there was protests against the use of "Feminazi" in Pekka's thread.

Oh, I missed that.

	16-02-2005 02:02									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Yes, but at the same time thereīs this big ass billboard announcing "Jewish related words ahead. The jocolar usage stops here. Or else!"

try googling on zionazi. You will find its not a jocular usage. Raghead or camel jockey for arab should not be used either.

	16-02-2005 02:19									#100
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"New York, NY, February 25, 2004 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today indicated its opposition to any effort to amend the United States Constitution in a manner which would discriminate against a specific group of Americans.


Barbara B. Balser, ADL National Chair, and Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director, issued the following statement:


We oppose any effort to amend the United States Constitution in a manner which could discriminate against a specific group of Americans. While religious communities should be able to decide for themselves what relationships they will recognize, ADL supports efforts to extend all the rights, protections and benefits of civil marriage to same sex couples. Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is as ugly as any other form of discrimination."

	16-02-2005 02:22									#101
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark the palestinians have suffered historically, and deserve a state of their own. That has nothing to do with Ken livingstone, or concentration camp guards. See thats why folks like Foxman see a link between antizionism and antisemitism - half the time the "antizionists" are really obsessed with Jews, the holocaust, and jews complaints about antisemitism without regard to mideast politics. Note that the nasty comments on this thread happened well before any mention was made of Israel or Palestine. That tends to get thrown in later.

All things are connected. The nazi terror and the following Israel/Palestine conflict are connected in the sense that there wouldnīt even be a State of Israel (or in any case it wouldnīt have come in 1948) if there wasnīt for the nazi terror. The creation of the State of Israel is a direct effect of the holocaust. All the other countries were so horrified with what the nazis had done and what they themselves had done to the jewish people since the middle ages, that they gave them their own land. The situation in Palestine had already grown to bothersome for the british after WWII. Better to hand over the land to the jews and be rid of the problem... Iīm sure that Israel wouldīve fought its way to independence sooner or later but not as early as 1948.

But I digress. The whole infected mess with jews and sionism is the result of how Israel was created. True there are nazis and anti-semites who despise jews because they are...well jews basically. But others question the State of Israel and sionism as a political ideology. Thereīs a big difference there. A difference thatīs being ignored by sionist ideologists, because "all criticism against the State of Israel is anti-semitic and aim to destroy Israel as a state and the jews as a people".

	16-02-2005 02:27									#102
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quote: yes obsessive concern with the Jews is often quite paranoid.

Obsessive concern with anything is often quite paranoid.

Note: it's the obsession that's the problem.

	16-02-2005 02:28									#103
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark try googling on zionazi. You will find its not a jocular usage. Raghead or camel jockey for arab should not be used either.

Iīm sure that that there are plenty of women who would object to the use of the word FemiNazi and not seeing anything even remotly jocular about it. And while raghead and camel jockey is derogatory names on arabs as a people. zionazi is a derogatory name for a political movement. Not all jews are zionists, you know

	16-02-2005 02:29									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X All things are connected. The nazi terror and the following Israel/Palestine conflict are connected in the sense that there wouldnīt even be a State of Israel (or in any case it wouldnīt have come in 1948) if there wasnīt for the nazi terror. The creation of the State of Israel is a direct effect of the holocaust. All the other countries were so horrified with what the nazis had done and what they themselves had done to the jewish people since the middle ages, that they gave them their own land. The situation in Palestine had already grown to bothersome for the british after WWII. Better to hand over the land to the jews and be rid of the problem... Iīm sure that Israel wouldīve fought its way to independence sooner or later but not as early as 1948. But I digress. The whole infected mess with jews and sionism is the result of how Israel was created. True there are nazis and anti-semites who despise jews because they are...well jews basically. But others question the State of Israel and sionism as a political ideology. Thereīs a big difference there. A difference thatīs being ignored by sionist ideologists, because "all criticism against the State of Israel is anti-semitic and aim to destroy Israel as a state and the jews as a people".

In a world with no Israel, a reporter would still have badger Livingstone. Might well have been a jewish reporter. Red ken would still have responded with his remark, and Jews would still have attacked the remark. Nothing to do with Israel.

	16-02-2005 02:29									#105
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quote: Not all jews are zionists, you know

The others are "self-hating" Jews, apparently.

	16-02-2005 02:32									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X quote: Iīm sure that that there are plenty of women who would object to the use of the word FemiNazi and not seeing anything even remotly jocular about it. you know what - theyre right. And while raghead and camel jockey is derogatory names on arabs as a people. zionazi is a derogatory name for a political movement. Not all jews are zionists, you know

So - its still not jocular.

	16-02-2005 02:34									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Not all jews are zionists, you know The others are "self-hating" Jews, apparently.

some are, some arent. I know what you were called during the anti Apartheid struggle if you pointed out that Buthelezi opposed the ANC and its agenda for South Africa.

	16-02-2005 02:35									#108
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark In a world with no Israel, a reporter would still have badger Livingstone. Might well have been a jewish reporter. Red ken would still have responded with his remark, and Jews would still have attacked the remark. Nothing to do with Israel.

But as I see it (with a bit of reverse thinking) if there was no Israel that would mean that there wouldnīt have been any nazis or at least no holocaust. Therefore the concentration guard remark would be meaningless as there was no death camps. And a lot of resentment wouldīve been spared since the whole Israel issue wouldnīt be there.

	16-02-2005 02:38									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X But as I see it (with a bit of reverse thinking) if there was no Israel that would mean that there wouldnīt have been any nazis or at least no holocaust.

then youre quite insane.

	16-02-2005 02:38									#110
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I should perhaps add that I am not personally an anti-zionist, if by "anti-zionist" one means someone who thinks that the State of Israel should be dismantled.

	16-02-2005 02:40									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I should perhaps add that I am not personally an anti-zionist, if by "anti-zionist" one means someone who thinks that the State of Israel should be dismantled.

good. Im not antiswedish, if by antiswedish you mean someone who thinks that Sweden should be dismantled

	16-02-2005 02:41									#112
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark So - its still not jocular.

Well, yeah. Though it pains me to admit it, I guess youīre right on this one.

	16-02-2005 02:44									#113
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark then youre quite insane.

No, itīs perfectly logical if you assume that Israel is a direct consequence of the Holocaust.

Then again, this could be considered insane as well. But Iīm sticking to it unless anyone can prove me wrong.

	16-02-2005 02:46									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X Iīm sure that that there are plenty of women who would object to the use of the word FemiNazi and not seeing anything even remotly jocular about it. And while raghead and camel jockey is derogatory names on arabs as a people. zionazi is a derogatory name for a political movement. Not all jews are zionists, you know

Who claimed that "Feminazi" is a jocular usage? When I use it, it's a deliberate insult.

Anyway, both "Zionazi" and "Feminazi" may properly refer to political movements, but that doesn't mean that anyone who hears you use either can't therefore legimately suspect you of being an anti-semite or misogynist respectively.

	16-02-2005 02:48									#115
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark good. Im not antiswedish, if by antiswedish you mean someone who thinks that Sweden should be dismantled

"Antiswedish" isn't a word I use, so I don't mean anything by it.

	16-02-2005 02:51									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X No, itīs perfectly logical if you assume that Israel is a direct consequence of the Holocaust. Then again, this could be considered insane as well. But Iīm sticking to it unless anyone can prove me wrong.

No Holocaust means no Israel is not the same as IF holocaust, then Israel. there are plenty of things that could have gotten in the way of Israel being formed, that would not have prevented the holocaust.

	16-02-2005 03:06									#117
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quote: some are, some arent. I know what you were called during the anti Apartheid struggle if you pointed out that Buthelezi opposed the ANC and its agenda for South Africa.

Doesn't make it any less ridiculous. Although it is funny that someone who supports an apartheid state would wish to bring up this example.

	16-02-2005 03:09									#118
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But the collective guilt of the western world hurried the creation of Israel. This would not have happened if the nazis hadnīt been hell bent on wiping out all the jews. Thus the holocaust was the cause and Israel the effect. There might have been other historical possibilities, but they didnīt happen. This did.

Now I have to eat some potato chips and watch TV, and then go to bed. See ya!

	16-02-2005 03:10									#119
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quote: there are plenty of things that could have gotten in the way of Israel being formed

Reason, for example.

	16-02-2005 03:25									#120
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The whole conversation:

quote: Ken Livingstone made his comments to Oliver Finegold when the reporter questioned him at a party to celebrate Chris Smith "coming out" as the first openly gay MP 20 years ago. This is a transcript of their conversation: Oliver Finegold: Mr Livingstone, Evening Standard. How did tonight go? Livingstone: How awful for you. Have you thought of having treatment? Finegold: How did tonight go? Livingstone: Have you thought of having treatment? Finegold: Was it a good party? What does it mean for you? Livingstone: What did you do before? Were you a German war criminal? Finegold: No, I'm Jewish, I wasn't a German war criminal and I'm actually quite offended by that. So, how did tonight go? Livingstone: Ah right, well you might be [Jewish], but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard, you are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you? Finegold: Great, I have you on record for that. So, how was tonight? Livingstone: It's nothing to do you with you because your paper is a load of scumbags and reactionary bigots. Finegold: I'm a journalist and I'm doing my job. I'm only asking for a comment. Livingstone: Well, work for a paper that doesn't have a record of supporting facism. Livingstone then walked off.

Red Ken must be a mega-bigot given the party he was at.

I agree with him. The Mail are bigots.