20-09-2005 06:48									#391
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Oh Rubychaser. They don't even know when they are overmatched in diplomacy. And maybe they shouldn't advertise that we are communicating. I'm PMg on that.

Here is the PM:

Discreteness
Most honored Rubychaser:

I appreciate your concern about public presentations but you should be very aware that private communication is indeed extremely different from public.

You might consider that I posted what I did as misdirection for other and more hostile interests.

Perhaps it is not such a good thing for either party, Babylonian or Horde-ian to make it clear to the world at large that we are attempting to forge, if not friendship, at least acquaintanceship with you. I fear I cannot be good for either of us.

As it stands, your public proclamation that I have been in contact with your people is information that all our enemies could use to their advantage. Could you see your path to a tiny edit of your message that removes the reference to our negotiations?

We continue to be your humble servants.

Golden Bear of the Babylonians

----------

Ruby PMd me to assure us that it is only good natured role playing.

Last edited by Golden Bear on 20-09-2005 at 06:59

	20-09-2005 08:22									#392
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Be careful with the Horde. And Read up on Ribbentop and his style of Diplomacy in the Nazi era and you'll see vast siilarities to the Horde style of Diplomacy.

E_T

	20-09-2005 08:33									#393
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I hear your concern. RC and I have traded some PMs so we are on the same page. He took out the reference to my private communications, which I take as an extremely good sign.

My thinking is that BOH wants to think we are irrelevant and I am trying to seem like a clown to reinforce that thinking. Personally, I think that they are softening. However, they are a very confused and angry lion and they could lash out at any time.

I've been told to keep them talking and I think that they are doing that. Their reply should be interesting.

At this point, RC seems to know that we are just having fun out there in public.

I think that your solid play with a weakening of attitudes around the world may play to our advantage.

I continue to be very concerned about LB. Lord Nuclear just will not correspond. He just may not be comfortable with negotiation, but it worries me. Does anybody here have a personal link with him that they can use instead of me?

If you like, I can start diplomatic correspondance with the DR. They are clearly confused and looking for someone to lead them along - and we are just the people to do it.

I think, if we stay tight, and make folks BELIEVE that we are no threat but useful as an ally (we are behind almost everybody's back) we can rearm, research, rebuild and grow. We just need to stay out of actual commitments but not make it obvious that we are doing so.

Are we OK?

	20-09-2005 09:13									#394
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I had seen him in chat, the other day, but he was mostly unresponcive (took hours for him te even acknowledge my Private Chat with him). He spoke a few words, and I talked most of the time, but I don't weven know if he had seen 1/2 of it. I think that he had timed out, but around 1 or more hours after I had given up getting a responce out of him.

Try e-mail instead of PM'ing him Or both) as hwe sometimes goes days without visiting Poly and only for short periods.

E_T

	20-09-2005 09:15									#395
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'K. You don't think that he will take it ill that I pester him?

	20-09-2005 09:20									#396
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And be careful with RC, he and I have butted heads (mosly him being a butt head than me) fairly recently and my impression of him is a very impatient Warmonger, who would rather slit your throat than try to understand your point of view. His RP might be more personal than just RP.

again, tred carefully.

And just my suspicion, but I really don't think that we will see anything from BoH, in resect to AM, until AM has just about totally wiped us out. But it's still worth a try.

I think mentioning Knights Templar got their attention. Just might prompt them to act sooner...

E_T

	20-09-2005 18:21									#397
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Hmm. Your points about RC are well taken. I'll take it easy on him.

I have a reply from the Horde via RC. It seems strange to me:

----------------------

Greetings
Greetings Golden Bear of Babylon

I am Ruby Chaser, Khanate Prince of Death Valley.

Golden Bear, you have asked to be a courier of news between our nations, so let it be so.

The Great People of Babylon have stated that you want to assist the Horde. In this your people have so far provided us with some many interesting facts on AM. The Horde are encouraged by your actions.

It has also been offered that you are willing to gather intelligence on other nations, and in this we ask you now to do so on the Bards.

I hereby formally request intelligence on the Bards town of Beach Boys. When you do this, please do a thorough count of the units that are in this town, as we are sure that their are more units than will be seen in the captured screen shot. Please convey this screen shot and accurate unit count to me.

I look for your reply, and a successful mission by your embassy agents.

I remain

Ruby Chaser,
Khanate Prince of Death Valley
Brigadier Commander of the Rock Hound Brigade

-------------------

Clearly it will be against our interests to tell them the truth. Or will it? Hmm. We could lie, with reasonable chance of not getting caught. We could say that we don't have the cash to do the intel, and sugges that they "lend" it to us. That would stall it for another turn. Or I could just continue a stream of meaningless chatter.

Interesting.

	20-09-2005 19:02									#398
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Well, they want us to build an embassy with euph. I think this is their last city.

Please point out, that:

Any Intel that we provide to you this way, will be out of date by the time that you play the turn, after it's taken, as Euph plays before you. Thereby, it might not be much use to you.

Also, ask if this means that they now beleave what we have beensaying about AM? If so, what are their Intentions??

It would be a sign of improving relations is they could also show us a small screenshot with them crossing AM's Borders, in preparation to attack them, before we commit our small treasure to this investigation (I don't have the game up and can't see how much it will cost). As we are using most of our Income in our War effort, we might not have the cash to do this, but we might be ale to work something out.

Give and take....

It's a try...Granted, they might not do anything after crossing the AM border, but they would have done that small act and we just might be able to use it against them.

It's a try.

E_T

	20-09-2005 20:19									#399
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I could always try asserting that they would lose all respect for us if we betrayed promises to Euphorica - or just betrayed them. How could they negotiate with someone who would so easily sell out a friend? Were/are they friends?

Obviously, this is mostly a stall.

	20-09-2005 20:55									#400
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Here is my reply:

------------

Greetings and sincere wishes of enormous success to you,

Ruby Chaser,
Khanate Prince of Death Valley
Brigadier Commander of the Rock Hound Brigade

I have received and communicated your wishes to our government. We do not have the information yet, but I thought it important to let you know that we are attempting to accomodate you. For instance, we do not have diplomatic relations with Euphorica and we are extremely poor right now, due to the depredations of hateful Ankh Morpork.

We are trying to gain your information through other means, in the absence of the cash that it takes to hire trained investigators. Perhaps we can get them to share the information willingly.

As a tiny gesture of attention from the mighty Horde, could you perhaps show us a picture of your invincible forces massing near the border of Ankh-Morpork? Just the sight of your cavalry around their periphery would be enough to distract some of the pressure from us.

We continue to believe that it will serve your best interests as well as ours to assist our survival. When we have peace with AM we will again be able to devote our attention to research and to trade - in this we can be a help to your powerful empire. And the more cities we retain, the more we will be able to help.

I recognize that you will impatient for early success in our mission. However, since we must use a subtle approach in this case, it is taking some time.

Your humble servant, etc.


Golden Bear, Emissary of the Golden Land of Babylon

----------------

They're not going to like it. When they pressure me next time, should I make a blunt statement that we need to see something before we hand over the info? I think that they need to be backed off a little bit and I also think that they want to see just how far they can push us.

I did not incorporate all the suggestions immediately E_T because I want to spread it out over a few messages. Expect more bluster back from them.

Who will do the Euphorica negotiation?

Last edited by Golden Bear on 20-09-2005 at 21:01

	20-09-2005 22:04									#401
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Good work so far. Keep spreading out the info.

About BOH's diplos. I have been to by Paddy, Rubychaser, PLATO, and at least one other that they are THE contact, and that they would like to rebuild a friendship between our civs only to have the next BOH diplo start over.

I agree that we do not want to look like we are willing to sell out of friends Euphorica or the Lost Boys.

	20-09-2005 23:06									#402
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I got a similar PM from RC as well. I will refer him to Golden Bear.

my reply via pm:

quote: Friend, It has been far too long since we spoke. The turn to turn cease fire that we worked on all those years ago has allowed both of our nations to continue with our goals. Thank you for the concern of my family. We are doing well considering the war. I trust that the people of the Horde are safe. Send my greetings to the leaders of your nation. Your request is being considered. Please look for a reply from Golden Bear. -Skrobism of Babylon

	20-09-2005 23:56									#403
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Are we continuing to ask for peace with them? Or do we just not care? Would we trade anything with BOH even if we were able?

I'm waiting for another tantrum from Ruby. Then I'll dangle something shiny in front of him...

	21-09-2005 00:22									#404
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Peace with BOH? This is a good question. Euphorica is all but gone. Lost Boys have gone from being an ally to non-responsive very quickly. So, I don't see how this could upset the world. But, I think peace talks would be a bit soon.

The Horde only understands strength. They need to earn our trust again. We could work towards peace by starting with some trades, or gifted luxs from us for active war on AM.

I do not trust BOH treaties. They sign them. Then back you into a corner and when you don't comply they declare war. I do not trust a peace with BOH.

Just keep them talking, don't get pulled into their scripted rants, do not sign anything. After we defeat AM, BOH is next on our sh1t list.

	21-09-2005 00:45									#405
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BOH is next? Okay! They are pretty free with their supposed IC insults so that suits me.

I wonder if we could pull together DR, LB, Bards and us to oppose BOH and AM - particularly if we can spark BOH and AM into rivalry. That might be interesting.

Don't we need peace before we can gift them luxuries?

Clearly a peace with BOH would be worth less than the piece of bark they would finger paint it on.

I saw that they recruited another member - presumably someone familiar only with one syllable words and grunts.

	21-09-2005 01:38									#406
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quote: Don't we need peace before we can gift them luxuries?

You might be right.

	21-09-2005 05:37									#407
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quote: Originally posted by Golden Bear Don't we need peace before we can gift them luxuries?

yes we do

	21-09-2005 06:03									#408
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Here is an interesting reply from Ruby. He even included humor, intentional I hope:
-----------------

quote: Greetings Babylon Golden Bear, It is good to have this communication happening between our peoples. I understand you not having the information on the Bard town of Beach Boys at hand. That would have been too easy It is sad news that your nation is doing so badly economicaly. Hordeland Control, our Auditors, inconjuntion with the Blood Bank, our Economic Department, had fiqured that you would have quite a war chest at this stage into your Golden Age, running a Monarchy. Adding to that, having the talents of E_T, the legendary micro-manager to guide your economy. My people advise me that an Embassy to the Bards would only be 45 - 60 gold. If you already have one, then a look into their city would not cost that much. But if you are broke, then that is not going to happen is it. Thank you for a request for a picture of Horde units in your region. I will pass on this opportunity at this stage, possibly better that I just bring my Regiment for a visit soon. Where would be a suitable place for a meeting of our troops? My Regiment can march at a days notice, and we would like the opportunity to show the flag in your region again. Maybe, just maybe, if you work on the screenshot I require, as a sign of good faith, I will provide you with your request, of where my troops are. I remain, Ruby Chaser Khanate Prince of Death Valley Brigadier General of the Rock Hound Brigade __________________ Khanate Prince of Death Valley Brigadier General of the Horde Rock Hound Brigade CEO of Secrets and Lies inc.

Certainly we do not want a visit from their troops. ooooh, noooo. Maybe a misunderstanding - hopefully just for a laugh. I'll suggest that they meet north of whatever that southernmost AM city of scum is called.

	21-09-2005 06:24									#409
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More Horde threats. It just means he cares.

	21-09-2005 07:16									#410
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Hey, they want that intel, we want assurances that they are making a move against AM. Simple as that, even when it comes to a lowbrow BOH'er....

Try using hand puppets....

E_T

	21-09-2005 08:30									#411
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I think I know what is going on.

BoH wants to try to keep Euphorica around long enough to get several Elites and possible GL's from it.

(See screenshot below).

They want to know if they are close to killing them off and want to keep them around as long as they can.

Also, they want to lose as few units as possible, the pu$$ies....

E_T

Attachment: boh.jpg
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	21-09-2005 11:01									#412
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Wish we were able to do that. 'ell of a stack.

	21-09-2005 11:03									#413
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Hey, they want that intel, we want assurances that they are making a move against AM. Simple as that, even when it comes to a lowbrow BOH'er.... Try using hand puppets.... E_T

Holy ****, E_T, I almost scalded myself with the coffee IŽd been drinking!

@golden bear: I had to edit your post to change the blue text into quotes; Many of us cannot read blue text because weŽre running MOO3 forum style, meaning blue background...

	21-09-2005 11:09									#414
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The Khan carries a teddy bear, so hand puppets might work

	21-09-2005 11:47									#415
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quote: Originally posted by Micha Holy ****, E_T, I almost scalded myself with the coffee IŽd been drinking!

I got that from several Sluggy Freelance Comics. Here is the first time that they are used.

Doctor Schlok Explains the Kiki Virus to Sam

Worship the Comic....

E_T

	21-09-2005 19:31									#416
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Please see the Eu thread.

	21-09-2005 21:13									#417
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I'm duplicate posting this because it is half BOH and half Euph, and the Euph thread will creep to the bottom of the stack soon.

--------

Hmm. I really don't want BOH to think that they can control us enough to make us betray friends. I'll dance around that somehow. They are slow witted. Although Ruby seemed to catch the SoC joke.

OK, if Euph is willing to take a pill to help us, we should time it so that we can trade it to BOH before Euph retires. I'll say we did the embassy, etc. I need the unit count also. I'd like to get the timing so that we get value out of trading the info, and Euph retires before BOH can molest them further.

A bad wrinkle is that Ruby is out of communication for 48 hours and I don't know if anybody else is picking up for him.

Is there any objection if I ask BOH whether there are any possible conditions under which Euph can survive? I can point out the indirect advantage of multiple civs working on techs, etc.

Anyway, Skro, if you are up to the depressing task, talk to them about the screenshot and the unit count, etc. Be honest about our motives. If we can, we'll do for BOH after we cripple AM. That leaves DR or LB to win the game I guess.

Golden Bear

------------

Sorry about the blue, Micha. I'm learning.

I like the idea of hand puppets. I've been trying to talk really slow and draw pictures so that they will understand. They keep drooling on the pictures.

Does anybody maintain contact with the AMs? They would be fun to torture in diplomacy. In a dignified way of course.

	21-09-2005 21:35									#418
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OK, here is the message to Paddy and Ruby:

-------------

Message from Babylon for BOH, 920 BC
Hail and much happiness to both our peoples!

Paddy and Ruby, it seems that Ruby is out of communication for a couple days, and we are in the middle of negotiations. That is why I am taking the liberty of sending to you both.

We think that we can generate the cash (it's complicated) for a diplo look at Euphorica and will communicate it back immediately. BTW, the cost is 53 - and since we are being open and honest here, we have around 40ish right now. The AM war is tough on us in every way.

What we are hoping for from the Horde is to move stacks of troops near the northern border of AM - making certain that AM can see them - so that AM will feel the need to split off some of their forces to secure their northern border. Thus, there is no need for AM to get involved in conflict with AM yet. We are pretty certain that it is just a matter of time before you do, of course.

BTW, don't wait too long to move on BOH. You saw the intel we have already shared about the advances they are making. You can check their military strength for yourself.

If you do this, a tiny screenpic to verify the troops presence up there near AM would be reassuring to us.

I apologize to going around normal diplomatic channels which have worked very well. However, we will be getting time sensitive information for you and want to move it quickly.

This should show our ability to deal with the reality of the current situation and the fact that we are not without value within this land and specifically to BOH.

As a point of interest - are there any conditions under which BOH will deign to let Euphorica survive? They are pretty used up right now and could not ever be a threat to anybody. However, having more civs research techs is all to the good for everybody. They also provide another potential trade source. Just some thoughts I have had.

Golden Bear, Ambassador to BOH from the Golden Towers of Babylon


21-09-2005 09:31
-----------------------------

OK, so I lied when I said I was being honest. It's OK to lie to liars, isn't it?

Here is my prediction:
50% they take the intel and tell us to buzz off
25% they take the intel and send us the picture
25% they take the intel, move the forces but refuse to take a picture

Frankly, they will never have a better opportunity to rip into AM if that is their goal.

	21-09-2005 21:39									#419
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

you might want to clarify the following:

quote: ...Thus, there is no need for AM to get involved in conflict with AM yet. We are pretty certain that it is just a matter of time before you do, of course. BTW, don't wait too long to move on BOH. You saw the intel we have already shared about the advances they are making. You can check their military strength for yourself...

a bit of a freudian slip?

	21-09-2005 21:47									#420
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Aw, crud.