19-03-2005 11:23									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Yes, IF HE LOVES HER.

Bullshit. He has stood by her side for 15 years, and she has had great medical care. I wouldn't blame anybody for engaging in another relationship in such conditions. It's not as if he took up with another woman and just forgot about his wife.

quote: Then don't use her suffering as an excuse.

Who used it as an excuse? Blatant strawman.

Were it proven there were no pain in PVS, however, it would demolish the major arguments of those seeking to keep Schiavo alive. It is they who argue she will feel pain as she dies.

quote: Nope just digging yourself deeper.

I think you've substantially failed to understand pretty simple arguments.

	19-03-2005 11:26									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Point number 1. A loving and caring husband that has a girlfriend and kids with the girlfriend? Right.

to a braindead wife yeah okay

quote: Point 2. You guys are saying to end her suffering. Take out the feeding tube. Opponents say yeah starve her to death, make her suffer before she dies. Response: She won't suffer, she has PVS. Well, if she won't suffer because she has PVS, SHE SURE AS HELL ISN'T SUFFERING NOW!!!! At least use a better argument. I have now PWNED every one of you "pull the feeding tube" hacks. You may worship me. ACK!

mental suffering, consciousness being kept alive, not moving on to next world... listen to Metallica - One

darkness imprisoning me, absolute horror, I cannot live, I cannot not die, body is my holding cell...

	19-03-2005 11:28									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I think my favorite thing about lefties is their innate need to feel like they are arguing for the moral side in any debate, whether they actually are or not.

I believe it is a truism that in arguments where a great moral question is involved, people will tend to believe their moral beliefs are the more correct ones.

Regardless, this is a rather obvious mischaracterization of the debate. I explicitley said I don't think the Schindler's intentions are immoral. I think they are short-sighted, but not immoral in their desire to keep their daughter alive. They're just in denial out of grief, which is understandable, as I said.

Any other strawmen?

quote: Hence Boris' tortured reasoning on why allowing Terri Schiavo to continue to live is a source of suffering that must be stopped by starving her to death...

Funny how you've decisively failed to refute any such "tortured reasoning" and have instead relied on blatant emotional appeals, unsubstantiated rumormongering and shameless attempts to slander Michael Schiavo.

	19-03-2005 11:29									#184
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In Canada the next of kin, in this case the husband, would have the final say on the termination of care. The political circus couldn't happen here.

	19-03-2005 11:31									#185
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quote: and she has had great medical care.

quote: Funny how you've decisively failed to refute any such "tortured reasoning" and have instead relied on blatant emotional appeals, unsubstantiated rumormongering and shameless attempts to slander Michael Schiavo.

Your argument has basically been reduced to "I would want to die if I were in that state and I think most other people would too, so Terri Schiavo probably does as well. Pull the tube." How am I supposed to refute that "reasoning"?

	19-03-2005 11:32									#186
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This is pretty common, actually. It doesn't give you a free pass to screw around on your spouse and it requires you to care for him/her to the best of your ability. Yeh, life sucks some times. It was always thus.

It's common, yes, and I commend people who do so. But not mandatory as proof that one loves the person who is stricken. Terri Schiavo has had great care. Michael spent years getting her the best treatment possible. But he was told--time and again--that her condition is irrecovable. Nobody in PVS as Terri is has ever emerged after more than 3 months. His wife died 15 years ago, so I think he had the right to move on.

	19-03-2005 11:33									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: and she has had great medical care.

why laugh drake? oh yeah, he still believes in the lies fauxnews are telling him.

	19-03-2005 11:33									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Bullshit. He has stood by her side for 15 years, and she has had great medical care. I wouldn't blame anybody for engaging in another relationship in such conditions. It's not as if he took up with another woman and just forgot about his wife.

quote: Who used it as an excuse? Blatant strawman. Were it proven there were no pain in PVS, however, it would demolish the major arguments of those seeking to keep Schiavo alive. It is they who argue she will feel pain as she dies.

Ummmm:

quote: quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Nice interpretation, but that wasn't the point. The point was that their beliefs seem to indicate a better future awaits their daughter in the afterlife, so I have I don't see why they would prevent her from heading there, especially condering her state. I think they're being selfish--but I can understand such selfishness, because it comes out of a love for their daughter. But the woman in the hospital isn't their daughter anymore--she's been gone for 15 years. The person in the hospital is a being who has no hope of recovery and is in a state in which no sane human being would want to remain. The Schindlers are unwilling to accept this fact and so persist in prolonging a terrible existence for someone who has suffered enough and should be allowed to rest. Also, Odin and Sava used her suffering as an excuse to pull the tube. You lose again. [q]I think you've substantially failed to understand pretty simple arguments.

You fail to make logical arguments.

Furthermore, you haven't asked me what I think, and I haven't said. I'm just poking holes in your arguments.

Bow down.

ACK!

	19-03-2005 11:36									#189
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Tubes is stealing all the pwning I worked so hard to achieve...

	19-03-2005 11:37									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Tubes is stealing all the pwning I worked so hard to achieve...

if you call ignoring the facts, pwning... then be my guest.

	19-03-2005 11:39									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Sava if you call ignoring the facts, pwning... then be my guest.

You guys are ignoring the facts, you tried to use a strawman by saying she is suffering, but won't suffer when starved to death.

I didn't ignore facts. You failed to present any.

ACK!

	19-03-2005 11:40									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Ummmm:

Ummmm what? Nowhere in that did I say she's feeling physical pain in her condition. Nice try, though.

If she doesn't feel pain, then the argument some people have about the horrors of her "starving to death" are just meaningless hyperbole. Thanks for demolishing their argument.

	19-03-2005 11:42									#193
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The Husband has the legal right to make the decision. Every single court to which this case has gone has ruled in his favor in the end. Unless the law is changed and the rights of spouses taken away, even if this moves to Federal court, the husband will win. Its simply using time and resources up.

This is a political farce driven by understandable pain form the family, and political grandstanding and ideological blindness by the "pro-life" people.

The human thing would be to allow the husband now to euthenize her and get it done with.

Of, and tubes me boy, if she is vegetative, she won;t suffer when the tube is pulled. IN fact, neither state should make a damn bit of difference if you are right. So what are you arguing exactly?

	19-03-2005 11:43									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski You guys are ignoring the facts, you tried to use a strawman by saying she is suffering, but won't suffer when starved to death.

That's a bullshit strawman itself. I even explicitely referenced the possibility she would feel pain while she starves, hence my comment that I hoped the doctors would give her large doses of sedatives.

You're missing the point--the issue isn't about physical pain for Terri, it's about her being forced to live in a condition in which the overwhelming majority of people do not want to live, and in which, according to the person legally allowed to make decisions for her, she expressed herself she didn't want to live.

	19-03-2005 11:43									#195
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You said she was suffering.

Suffering implies pain.

I even bolded it for you, did I need to make it LARGER?

ACK!

Last edited by Tuberski on 19-03-2005 at 11:49

	19-03-2005 11:44									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Ummmm what? Nowhere in that did I say she's feeling physical pain in her condition. Nice try, though. If she doesn't feel pain, then the argument some people have about the horrors of her "starving to death" are just meaningless hyperbole. Thanks for demolishing their argument.

who said anything about physical pain the fact that she is going to have to live for about two weeks with no nutrients and then die is what I was talking abput

	19-03-2005 11:45									#197
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quote: Of, and tubes me boy, if she is vegetative, she won;t suffer when the tube is pulled. IN fact, neither state should make a damn bit of difference if you are right. So what are you arguing exactly?

Another person who can't understand a simple argument. I was wondering when you'd make an appearance...

	19-03-2005 11:45									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski You guys are ignoring the facts, you tried to use a strawman by saying she is suffering, but won't suffer when starved to death. I didn't ignore facts. You failed to present any. ACK!

All you've proved is that you are incapable of thinking on a metaphysical level. I'm sorry. The discussion about suffering is one that requires philosophical and intellectual thought. Since you were unable to discriminate between physical and mental anguish, you get moved to the short bus.

	19-03-2005 11:45									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You're missing the point--the issue isn't about physical pain for Terri, it's about her being forced to live in a condition in which the overwhelming majority of people do not want to live, and in which, according to the person legally allowed to make decisions for her, she expressed herself she didn't want to live.

She expressed herself?

When?

I'm not missing the point, I think she should be allowed to die.

I just like poking holes in stupid arguments.

ACK!

	19-03-2005 11:46									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski You said she was suffering. Suffering implies pain.

No, suffering implies enduring something unpleasant. It could be pain, it could be mental duress, it could be a lot of things. The Schindlers are suffering during this, and it's not because they are in physical pain.

Any other bad arguments you have to make? You can bold them as much as you want, that's ok by me!

	19-03-2005 11:47									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Sava All you've proved is that you are incapable of thinking on a metaphysical level. I'm sorry. The discussion about suffering is one that requires philosophical and intellectual thought. Since you were unable to discriminate between physical and mental anguish, you get moved to the short bus.

And all you've proved is that you can't think logically.

Remember, underwear goes on before pants.

ACK!

	19-03-2005 11:48									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That's a bullshit strawman itself. I even explicitely referenced the possibility she would feel pain while she starves, hence my comment that I hoped the doctors would give her large doses of sedatives. You're missing the point--the issue isn't about physical pain for Terri, it's about her being forced to live in a condition in which the overwhelming majority of people do not want to live, and in which, according to the person legally allowed to make decisions for her, she expressed herself she didn't want to live.

Who did she express that she didnt want to live to? the husband who has a gf and new kids? please give me a break those are his words not hers. I see nobody has answered why he just doesnt let her be and let her folks deal with her

	19-03-2005 11:49									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Another person who can't understand a simple argument. I was wondering when you'd make an appearance...

I like seeing you flee like a rat off a sinking ship when whatever "arguement" you are trying to make sinks. Its funny, in a pathetic sort of sense. Fez is a better addition to this forum thank you. That is sad.

BUt enough talking to the kiddies. Don't want to get my first ever suspension over something like Drakie Pooh.

	19-03-2005 11:49									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No, suffering implies enduring something unpleasant. It could be pain, it could be mental duress, it could be a lot of things. The Schindlers are suffering during this, and it's not because they are in physical pain. Any other bad arguments you have to make? You can bold them as much as you want, that's ok by me!

See? Again, you can't see that I'm not making an argument, I'm refuting yours.

To me you are right, but for the wrong reasons.

ACK!

	19-03-2005 11:51									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski She expressed herself? When?

Good lord, have you read anything about the case? Michael Schiavo, her legal guardian, has said all along that she had expressed to him her desire that, should anything happen to put her in such a state, she should be allowed to die.

quote: I'm not missing the point, I think she should be allowed to die. I just like poking holes in stupid arguments.

Except you haven't done that, you've just made more stupid arguments of your own. It's easy to knock down strawmen, after all.

	19-03-2005 11:51									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski And all you've proved is that you can't think logically.

My statements are pure logic.

IF terry = conscious terry = suffering
THEN remove tube = end suffering

IF terry = braindead
THEN pull tube its just brain of mush

I know you may not be able to think about two things at once, or multitask, but it's pretty simple.

quote: Remember, underwear goes on before pants. ACK!

bah, I always go commando

	19-03-2005 11:51									#207
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quote: I like seeing you flee like a rat off a sinking ship when whatever "arguement" you are trying to make sinks.

When would you have ever seen that?

	19-03-2005 11:51									#208
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Of, and tubes me boy, if she is vegetative, she won;t suffer when the tube is pulled. IN fact, neither state should make a damn bit of difference if you are right. So what are you arguing exactly?

I'm not arguing anything, just pointing out that their reasoning is flawed.

ACK!

	19-03-2005 11:51									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Who did she express that she didnt want to live to? the husband who has a gf and new kids? please give me a break those are his words not hers. I see nobody has answered why he just doesnt let her be and let her folks deal with her

Unfortunately, that's imaterial to the case. Under the law of the land the husband makes that choice. Heck, IF she had left specific instructions, then this farce would have ended long ago, so it pretty clear she did not. I doubt in the mental state she was prior to the events that left her like this, she was going around making wills and plans for her death. Most people in their 30's don't.

	19-03-2005 11:52									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski See? Again, you can't see that I'm not making an argument, I'm refuting yours. To me you are right, but for the wrong reasons. ACK!

You haven't refuted my arguments, you've set up strawmen to argue against. Try again.