21-03-2005 00:22									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris DinoDoc, students have no problem vandalizing cars and offices. The professors know this. A strike is a two-way game.

Awesome! Not only do they get to fail the slackers, they get the dangerous ones that have no real buisiness being at a university thrown out.

	21-03-2005 00:29									#32
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It's Quebec, I'm sure they reward the troublemakers .

	21-03-2005 00:33									#33
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Since it's crunch time for my PhD thesis, I haven't followed it closely. But I didn't have to teach last tuesday, so that was a quite welcomed break! I will teach next tuesday, however. Don't know if there will be anybody, though. I'm somewhat sympathetic to their cause: I owe tons of cash. But I heard that some student representatives are also aiming for a free education. In other words, they don't want to pay for anything, just like the public universities in France. I've been to France, and thrust me, you don't want to go there.

IIRC, the problem of French universities is that the real elite education doesn't happen there but in other institutions.
In Austria, we had almost 100% public universities free education and it worked well in matters of quality. Of course, it was a pretty expensive thing for the state and fees were introduced - causing student strikes, but not big enough so the reform passed without too much resistance.
Ironically, the govt. said the money collected from the fees would go 100% to the now autonomous university budgets, yet for some reason now most faculties and university libraries suffer from shockingly low budgets, cuts in all kind of expenses, lack of courses etc. The library of the "Institute for South Eastern Eurean History" here in Graz for instance couldn't afford to buy a book its very chairman was editor of.

The minister of education says it's got absolutely nothing to do with her innovative reform that will lead Austria's universities to the "global top", it's all mismanagement of the autonomous budget on faculty level - in Graz, Vienna, Innsbruck, Linz, Salzburg, Klagenfurt, in social sciences and philosophy, natural sciences and economics, arts and law. Her performance is beyond critique.

	21-03-2005 00:33									#34
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I'd still fail thier asses. Unless the professor is a coward in the face of spoiled brats, he has to maintain a position of authority and stick to the policies he laid out at the begining of the semester.

	21-03-2005 00:59									#35
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quote: In Austria, we had almost 100% public universities free education and it worked well in matters of quality.

A low percentage of Austrians go to university, about 1/3rd the rate of Canada. As and if the percentage goes up, the government will be increasingly unable to fund university education without raising taxes, upping student fees, or decreasing quality.

	21-03-2005 03:11									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ah yes, a culture of lawlessness, only promoted by students. And you wonder why people hate stiking hooligans. In the US, the police will investigate the vandalism. At the very least, the university police will and those responsible will get booted off campus. I wonder how that isn't intimidation of professors? Nice to know that your ilk are on the same moral plane as the mafia.

Students are not asking much, if only that exams and assignments don't have to be handed. Professors are receiving their salary anyway, so why would they be looking for trouble with the students?

So that's it. Almost all professors are cooperative anyway, but ignoring the democratic decision of a student association is at their own risk.

It's like union thugs beating the guy who hires scabs. It's been done before.

	21-03-2005 03:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'd still fail thier asses. Unless the professor is a coward in the face of spoiled brats, he has to maintain a position of authority and stick to the policies he laid out at the begining of the semester.

It's certainly going to look good on the university records, 25 000 students getting Fs.

	21-03-2005 03:38									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris So that's it. Almost all professors are cooperative anyway, but ignoring the democratic decision of a student association is at their own risk.

Doesn't civil disobedience usually entail a willingness to accept the consequences of your actions and not resort to mafia style tactics to escape the consequences of policies that were explained at the begining of the semester?

	21-03-2005 04:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris It's certainly going to look good on the university records, 25 000 students getting Fs.

Presumably they would also know the context, especially if it were in the news...

	21-03-2005 04:12									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris So that's it. Almost all professors are cooperative anyway, but ignoring the democratic decision of a student association is at their own risk.

Last time I checked, the democratic student association didn't employ the professors...

Clearly, Congress should bow down the the democratic decisions of the Libertarian club at my school.

quote: It's like union thugs beating the guy who hires scabs. It's been done before.

@ using violence to force people to give you money

	21-03-2005 04:18									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Doesn't civil disobedience usually entail a willingness to accept the consequences of your actions and not resort to mafia style tactics to escape the consequences of policies that were explained at the begining of the semester?

Student associations have a legal standing, with mandatory contributions & Co - student strikes are clearly more than mere acts of "civil disobedience". Moreover, even though it's not the case everywhere, professors here have an explicit clause in their work contract saying that they don't have to teach if there's a strike, as long as there are protesters in front of the door.

	21-03-2005 04:21									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Last time I checked, the democratic student association didn't employ the professors...

Let me ask you: if the professors go on strike, is it the students' right to break into their office and ask them to do the course?

	21-03-2005 04:22									#43
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Why would it ever be the right of the students to break in to (by nature illegal) the professors' offices?

The university might fire them, but I don't see how the students would even have anything to do with it.

	21-03-2005 04:33									#44
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Don't consider the precise legal standing involved here, I'm talking at a more abstract level.

The question here, is that a prof still requiring that the work be done, is clearly ignoring a democratic choice, and using the means at his disposition to revert it.

Despite being legal, they still have the same effect: they coerce students by forcing them to give up their association right. I doubt the legitimacy of something, even legal, meant to undermine popular will.

	21-03-2005 04:41									#45
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I'd have to read more about this situation to have an informed opinion on it.

But I must be honest, I can't seem to get myself motivated to argue about some local Quebec education issue.

But I like how most people arguing vehemently in this thread are doing so without really being informed. But that's to be expected from some.

	21-03-2005 04:55									#46
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quote: The question here, is that a prof still requiring that the work be done, is clearly ignoring a democratic choice, and using the means at his disposition to revert it.

So what? If the Libertarian club at my school votes to denounce Medicare, and Congress doesn't get rid of it, Congress is also ingoring a democratic choice! And if the people of Belgium vote for the US to leave Iraq, and we don't, we're also ignoring a democratic choice!

quote: Despite being legal, they still have the same effect: they coerce students by forcing them to give up their association right. I doubt the legitimacy of something, even legal, meant to undermine popular will.

Eh, no. They "coerce" students by refusing to give them something that the students are declaring they will not take anyway!

Again, this is as if senior citizens went on strike because of proposed cuts to Medicare. WTF?

	21-03-2005 08:06									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'd have to read more about this situation to have an informed opinion on it. But I must be honest, I can't seem to get myself motivated to argue about some local Quebec education issue. But I like how most people arguing vehemently in this thread are doing so without really being informed. But that's to be expected from some.

As you wish, but obviously the debate is more about student strikes in general, not the specific issues.

	21-03-2005 08:11									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So what? If the Libertarian club at my school votes to denounce Medicare, and Congress doesn't get rid of it, Congress is also ingoring a democratic choice! And if the people of Belgium vote for the US to leave Iraq, and we don't, we're also ignoring a democratic choice!

The difference being, of course, that we're students of the same university where they're teaching.

quote: Eh, no. They "coerce" students by refusing to give them something that the students are declaring they will not take anyway!

They won't take it, but obviously they consider failing grades (and the hassles associated with it) to be too much. If the strike ends soon, they'll just do the rest of the course later; if it's too long, they'll want the semester to be canceled, without the Fs.

quote: Again, this is as if senior citizens went on strike because of proposed cuts to Medicare. WTF?

Some people who want to work, actually stop working and go on strike. Could you believe that?

	21-03-2005 08:12									#49
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Actually in many schools, teachers are cancelling classes to respect the strike but thats not everywhere.

	21-03-2005 08:16									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Lul Thyme Actually in many schools, teachers are cancelling classes to respect the strike but thats not everywhere.

In other schools, students take it upon themselves to cancel the classes.

	21-03-2005 08:16									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I'm going to Bordeaux next year. The wine and the women should compensate for the crappy university, right?

In what uni precisely? Will you live in public student housing, or in private ones?

I've studied in Bordeaux. I'm not really outgoing, but I may have a few tips for you

	21-03-2005 08:21									#52
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My demand has been made to Bordeaux-III. I'd rather live in private housing, but that depends on my budget (more precisely, if I can count on a tuition I applied to on top of personal money).

	21-03-2005 08:27									#53
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Well, rents in Bordeaux aren't too terrible. But you need to look early for habitation. Besides, public student housing is the first to go, and you have to file in early spring if you want to get something public IIRC. The best thing to do is to join a colocation, and the rent can quickly go to about 200€ a month for something comfortable.

Bordeaux III, as with the rest of the campus, is fugly. I strongly recommand you to live in the city centre, where it's much more lively than on the campus. I haven't taken the new public transportation (tramway) since I left, but I expect transportation to be acceptable now.

	21-03-2005 08:32									#54
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BTW, it feels strange to be talking in English with you. Oh, and if you're around next year we'll arrange for a drink.

	21-03-2005 09:14									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris In other schools, students take it upon themselves to cancel the classes.

Yeah but if the teachers don't agree, it doesnt bode well for the students after a week or two does it?

	21-03-2005 09:31									#56
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quote: Bordeaux III, as with the rest of the campus, is fugly. I strongly recommand you to live in the city centre, where it's much more lively than on the campus. I haven't taken the new public transportation (tramway) since I left, but I expect transportation to be acceptable now.

I highly recommend Oncle Boris to live on campus. It will be small and ugly, but he'll easily meet people. Otoh, if he lives in the city centre, he'll likely get isolated.

	21-03-2005 09:37									#57
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quote: Actually in many schools, teachers are cancelling classes to respect the strike but thats not everywhere.

I'm not free to cancel a class if I want to. Its the admninistrations call. So I'm supposed to teach next tuesday. We'll see what happens. If I'm not back by thursday, call the cops

	21-03-2005 09:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo I highly recommend Oncle Boris to live on campus. It will be small and ugly, but he'll easily meet people. Otoh, if he lives in the city centre, he'll likely get isolated.

I dunno how it was in Aix, but Bordeaux' campus is pretty much dead at night. OTOH, the city core has a very active student nightlife (30,000+ students for an area's population of 700,000, with most students concetrated in two small zones).

	21-03-2005 09:48									#59
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I see. Boris, follow Spiffor's advice.

I wasn't on campus, I was on the outskirt of Aix. I had great apartment with a nice view of Mont de la Sainte Victoire. However, I was isolated. Otoh, my friends who went to Paris lived at La Citée Universitaire. They didn't work much, but they had a ball.

	21-03-2005 10:43									#60
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quote: It's like union thugs beating the guy who hires scabs.

So you ARE admitting you are on the same moral plane as the mafia.

I guess you won't complain if the police beat the student protestors either, right?