21-03-2005 17:53									#91
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: If he's merely enforcing some antiquated and unjust law, then merely .

Thats what the husband is doing. I will remember how you sticklers for the word of the law reacted here the next time you supposed communist revolutionaries get up on your soap box.

	21-03-2005 17:54									#92
	Put an end to popups!

Which communist revolutionaries are doing that?

	21-03-2005 17:57									#93
	Remove this text

quote: Thats what the husband is doing. I will remember how you sticklers for the word of the law reacted here the next time you supposed communist revolutionaries get up on your soap box.

I think communism is second in ridiculum only to patriotism.

As for the word of law, it would truly suck if some Christian agenda is being enforced above the law, at least laws are easier to change than the minds of the dogmatic.

If the law gives the next of kin the right to decide when to let the patient die, and her request can be verified, then I see no problem here if we agree that euthanasia is ok.

	21-03-2005 18:04									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: and her request can be verified

It can not.

	21-03-2005 18:06									#95
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Then the family's wish to keep her alive wins by default, unless the woman herself is able to communicate her wish to die.

	21-03-2005 18:44									#96
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually, as Imran pointed out, the LAW says the husband is responsible as her guardian, not her parents, unless she left a Living Will stating otherwise. Since she did not, it all defaults to her. I have left the decision split between my wife, who is a little bit on the soft side, and my sister, the one who is burned and lost her husband. She will be very quick to pull the plug. Between them they will negotiate the best for me if I am unable.

What is fascinating is that a purely internal state matter is being over-ridden by the same party (Republicans for you non-US posters) that claims to be upholding States Rights. There is, to put it kindly, a bit of mismatch there. To put it not so kindly, it is pure hippocracy and grandstanding.

	21-03-2005 18:53									#97
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc To put it not so kindly, it is pure hippocracy and grandstanding.

Gentlemen and ladies, the President and First Lady :

	21-03-2005 19:31									#98
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: What is fascinating is that a purely internal state matter is being over-ridden by the same party

Inconsistant on one issue, very consistant on another.

I for one am glad the Republicans are not so attached to their States rights position that they cannot flex. I am a proponent of states rights too, but doesn't mean that because I belive that I am okay with a state deciding to kill innocent people, and if you believe that then how could you not do everything in your power to stop it. Not THAT would be hypocrisy.

	21-03-2005 20:03									#99
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Is it the state killing her, or something more akin to suicide? What is your position on suicide in that respect, and assuming one consents of sound mind, what of those who may assist?

	21-03-2005 20:07									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Of course that is the problem with this there are so many questions and nobody agrees on the answers.

On Hypocrisy:

This is why I prefer smaller parties in coalistion instead of large hegemons. Currenty poth political parties are such amalgamation of views and opinions that no matter what issue they take they are truning their backs on a portion of themselves.

	21-03-2005 20:08									#101
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Don't think the president should have become involved. I don't know much about this situation, I don't really care for it because it doesn't seem very important. A woman is a vegetable, the husband claims she gave him permission to let her die or perform euthanasia which he intends to do, whereas her family wants her to keep living? Tough one. Philosophically speaking I'd leave it in the hands of the doctors. Legally I suppose it must rest with the next of kin. If her request was false then obviously the husband shouldn't be allowed to get his way.

Eh, except that the husband is the legal guardian, not the doctors. It's not even a philosophical issue, it's a legal one. And the doctors are the one who proclaim her in a vegetative state anyway.

	21-03-2005 20:08									#102
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

molly:



Probably smarter than the current Prez as well .

	21-03-2005 20:10									#103
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I for one am glad the Republicans are not so attached to their States rights position that they cannot flex.

It's not just state rights; it's the federal government trying to intervene in a court case in progress! If that's not a huge extension of federal powers, I don't know what is.

quote: I am a proponent of states rights too, but doesn't mean that because I belive that I am okay with a state deciding to kill innocent people, and if you believe that then how could you not do everything in your power to stop it. Not THAT would be hypocrisy.

	21-03-2005 20:28									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Congress has the right to get involved with the courts. I'm not so much pissed at Congress for extending its authority, as I am for it's interfering in a single family's private affair solely for the purpose of rallying its fundi base.

	21-03-2005 20:33									#105
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Congress has the right to get involved with the courts.

Not in this manner.

	21-03-2005 20:35									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Given that the Constitution is excedingly vague on the matter, I'd have to say you're wrong.

	21-03-2005 20:38									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No, the Constitution is NOT vague on this matter. There is no power of Congress under Art 1, Sec 8, where Congress can pass a law in this situation. The federal court can only hear cases involving a federal law or diversity jurisdiciton. The federal law is blatently unconstitutional (this is not commerce, people!).

	21-03-2005 20:39									#108
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Congress has the right to get involved with the courts.

I don't see how, not to this extent, not as far as interfering with the judicial process in progress.

	21-03-2005 20:41									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, the Constitution is NOT vague on this matter. There is no power of Congress under Art 1, Sec 8, where Congress can pass a law in this situation. The federal court can only hear cases involving a federal law or diversity jurisdiciton. The federal law is blatently unconstitutional (this is not commerce, people!).

Clearly, if she's taking off the tube, the money will no longer go to the hospital, which will affect the profitability of the hospital, which could force the hospital to raise prices, which could affect prices in other states.

	21-03-2005 20:46									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I don't see how, not to this extent, not as far as interfering with the judicial process in progress.

The judicial process was over. Schiavo won completely. IIRC, all Congress is doing is passing a law saying this can be heard in Federal courts, presumably on a civil rights basis.

	21-03-2005 20:47									#111
	Suffering from ads?

On CNN congressman Wexler(D) from Florida made a very cimple point" if the parents had won the appeals, this would never have gone to congress- ie., its obvious the problem for Repugs and the dems who supported this farce of the law was not that, as one blockhead from Arizona puyt it on CNN last night, that "Terry's due process was violated", but instead that they disagreed with the Florida Court system's findings of fact.

I hope this law is struck down, and in fact, I do hope that the Federak judge who will hear this at 3pm will say "nothing wrong with the Floridfa ruling, due process was followed,t he evidence is sound, I will not overturn the local court's decision because I have nothing to do with this", and simply let this case end according to the laws of this country.

	21-03-2005 20:51									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The judicial process was over. Schiavo won completely. IIRC, all Congress is doing is passing a law saying this can be heard in Federal courts, presumably on a civil rights basis.

If there was a Civil Rights claim, the family could have long ago appealed to the Federal Courts.

Listening to the debate yesterday was a bit enlightening- the republican leader of the judiciarty committee was explaining WHY this bill was needed. Essentially, under the system before this bill, if a Federal Court decided to listen to this case they would have to in doing so accept the finding of fact of the lower court, and use it. With this bill, the Federal Court would be given the power to ignore the findings of the lower court and start anew.

This bill's purpose is to allow the findings of fact of the Florida court to be overturned and ignored, besically to re-start the clock. That is unacceptable.

	21-03-2005 20:52									#113
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Clearly, if she's taking off the tube, the money will no longer go to the hospital, which will affect the profitability of the hospital, which could force the hospital to raise prices, which could affect prices in other states.

	21-03-2005 20:54									#114
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Speaking of Bush hypocrisy on this matter, I wonder how many are aware that while as governor of Texas, Bush signed the Texas Futile Care Law. This allows doctors, if they have concluded that continued measures to prolong life are useless, to end such measures.

Last week, this law was used by doctors to remove a baby from life support in spite of the mother's wishes:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistor...politan/3084934

Where was the Republican bill for the baby? Where was the right-to-lifer outrage when Bush signed this bill into law?

Furthermore, considering that the GOP Congress has been gleefully calling for huge cuts in medicaid, which would in many cases help fund life-prolonging measures such as Schiavo's, I have to say the hypocrisy is just oozing from the right-wing in this matter. Good thing they aren't opposed to big malpractice verdicts that can help fund such...treatment...oops...

	21-03-2005 21:04									#115
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

There is a fundemental difference between stopping artificial life support and stopping the provision of food and water. IMO, this sets a dangerous precedent since it is euthanasia of a mentally deficient person.

	21-03-2005 21:12									#116
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH There is a fundemental difference between stopping artificial life support and stopping the provision of food and water. IMO, this sets a dangerous precedent since it is euthanasia of a mentally deficient person.

Except the laws that allow for this act have been in the books for a long time- cases like this happen all the time, and the Corust found evidence that this is what the woman wanted.

The only bad precedent come from Congress.

	21-03-2005 21:26									#117
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

AFAIK the ruling was based upon the removal of "treatment" (based upon court acceptance of evidence that she would not have wanted to live under these conditions). Providing food and water is not "treatment" however. The removal of food and water to an individual under these conditions is euthanasia and no different than suffocating her with a pillow.

	21-03-2005 21:27									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH There is a fundemental difference between stopping artificial life support and stopping the provision of food and water. IMO, this sets a dangerous precedent since it is euthanasia of a mentally deficient person.

No there isn't

	21-03-2005 21:37									#119
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by GePap This bill's purpose is to allow the findings of fact of the Florida court to be overturned and ignored, besically to re-start the clock. That is unacceptable.

That would be a violation of the Full Faith and Credit clause, would it not?

	21-03-2005 22:07									#120
	Increase Your PM Length

How?