22-03-2005 08:48									#181
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Just for the record in a condition like hers you dont lose your dignity, its taken from you by the wise asses taken care of you.

	22-03-2005 08:49									#182
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quote: She has severe brain damage, which is apparently enough to strip you of all human dignity these days...

When there is no chance of recovery (as attested to by every doctor who has examined her), yep.

	22-03-2005 08:49									#183
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Vague? PVS is very specific, it means she is always going to be a vegetable. Vegetable=no brain function.

	22-03-2005 08:50									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski But how can he get caught. I cant speak right. I cant point the finger and god knows if there is no proof he wont get caught. But he still needs me out of the way in case I do recover and help send him to jail.

There is such a thing as forensic evidence. It's really not that easy to get away with murder unless you kill complete strangers. You know, it's not like murder victims are able to verbally point to their murderer either.

	22-03-2005 08:53									#185
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If it's so clear, why do they need to employ several doctors to declare her to be in such a state? It's a subjective standard and not clear at all...

quote: When there is no chance of recovery (as attested to by every doctor who has examined her), yep.

As Spencer said, that's a hell of a precedent to set. Lots of severely retarded people out there with no chance of recovery who you'd be stripping of their human dignity...

	22-03-2005 08:53									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski Just for the record in a condition like hers you dont lose your dignity, its taken from you by the wise asses taken care of you.

A corpse has no dignity. That doesn't change just because it's still breathing. Only human beings can have dignity, and what was Terry Schiavo no longer counts as a being.

	22-03-2005 08:55									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten If it's so clear, why do they need to employ several doctors to declare her to be in such a state? It's a subjective standard and not clear at all... quote: When there is no chance of recovery (as attested to by every doctor who has examined her), yep. As Spencer said, that's a hell of a precedent to set. Lots of severely retarded people out there with no chance of recovery who you'd be stripping of their human dignity...

No, PVS isn't subjective. It's just that some ultraChristians don't have enough integrity to let the facts tell them what to think, and instead let imaginary freinds tell them what to think.

As for what Spencer said, there is a difference between most retarded people and those who are missing their brains.

	22-03-2005 08:55									#188
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quote: A corpse has no dignity. That doesn't change just because it's still breathing.

You do know what a corpse is, don't you? The fact that a body is breathing actually does change things...

quote: As for what Spencer said, there is a difference between most retarded people and those who are missing their brains.

Use of the word "most" noted. Nice way to gain some wiggle room, but what about the retarded people who don't fit into the "most" category? Is it alright to starve them to death?

	22-03-2005 08:57									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: A corpse has no dignity. That doesn't change just because it's still breathing. You do know what a corpse is, don't you? The fact that a body is breathing actually does change things...

No, it really doesn't. Terry Schiavo died fifteen years ago. All that's left is a body that hasn't died yet. It's a corpse.

	22-03-2005 08:58									#190
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quote: You do know what a corpse is, don't you? The fact that a body is breathing actually does change things...

No, it doesn't. It's just a shell of person whos brain has been turned to mush. A fetus has more human dignity.

	22-03-2005 08:58									#191
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A body that hasn't died yet isn't a corpse, by definition. You two could at least try to argue seriously...

	22-03-2005 08:59									#192
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There is such a thing as forensic evidence. It's really not that easy to get away with murder unless you kill complete strangers. You know, it's not like murder victims are able to verbally point to their murderer either.

touchee but if they never find me that cant prove he killed me. unlesss hes a dumb killer

	22-03-2005 08:59									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Use of the word "most" noted. Nice way to gain some wiggle room, but what about the retarded people who don't fit into the "most" category? Is it alright to starve them to death?

I left it vague, because, in fact, some infants are born without frontal cortexes. By definition, they are retarded. Since the frontal cortex is what makes us people, the lack of one should be enough to let it die.

	22-03-2005 09:00									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten A body that hasn't died yet isn't a corpse, by definition. You two could at least try to argue seriously...

The mind is dead, so it's good enough.

	22-03-2005 09:01									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski touchee but if they never find me that cant prove he killed me. unlesss hes a dumb killer

You don't need a body to prove murder. It just helps. You're getting wildly speculative, now, you know. BTW, unless you're in a hospital, I'm guessing it's pretty hard to keep a body in a PVS state alive.

	22-03-2005 09:02									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten A body that hasn't died yet isn't a corpse, by definition.

Ever hear of the living dead? The only part of a person that is meaningful comes from the frontal cortex. Anything else you can remove from a person that would leave them alive would still leave them a person. Once the person is gone, all you have is a sack of meat. For all intents and purposes, it is a corpse. Just one that hasn't finished dying yet.

	22-03-2005 09:04									#197
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quote: I left it vague, because, in fact, some infants are born without frontal cortexes. By definition, they are retarded. Since the frontal cortex is what makes us people, the lack of one should be enough to let it die.

quote: The mind is dead, so it's good enough.

You guys are indeed moral titans.

	22-03-2005 09:06									#198
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quote: Ever hear of the living dead?

Well, if we're going to use cinema as the basis for real-life arguments now, I'd suggest we place Terri Schiavo into that magical retirement home pool where aliens will restore her health and vitality. Hell, she's already in Florida, so it should be easy!

	22-03-2005 09:07									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You guys are indeed moral titans.

Morals only apply to beings. Not things. Terry Schiavo's body is a thing. There is no person there. There hasn't been for fifteen years. I can't be immoral to a chair. I can't be immoral to a corpse. I can only be immoral to other beings.

BTW, I DanS'd you.

	22-03-2005 09:10									#200
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Do you support starving animals to death?

	22-03-2005 09:11									#201
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by chegitz guevara


You don't need a body to prove murder. It just helps. You're getting wildly speculative, now, you know. BTW, unless you're in a hospital, I'm guessing it's pretty hard to keep a body in a PVS state alive. [/QUOTE
I know this but this thread was about the law not the woman it was started for. The precedents have the oppurtunity to get larger in every state if this continues. And yes I read the child case in houston in the other thread.

	22-03-2005 09:12									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Do you support starving animals to death?

An animal is a being.

	22-03-2005 09:14									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski I know this but this thread was about the law not the woman it was started for. The precedents have the oppurtunity to get larger in every state if this continues. And yes I read the child case in houston in the other thread.

The worse precedent would be for parents to start interfering in spousal privledge. You wanna talk abuse, just think about how messy that could get. Your wife dies, and her parents decide to take everything you own based on the Schindler's getting their way.

	22-03-2005 09:16									#204
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quote: The only part of a person that is meaningful comes from the frontal cortex.

Assuming Terri Schiavo's frontal cortex is completely gone (which isn't clear but I'll accept it here for the sake of debate), then she is no longer a person in your eyes. Not being a person would not immediately drop her to the level of a inanimate object, though, would it? She's not the equivalent of a chair in this circumstance; she's more akin to a living but unthinking animal. So, I assume you're willing to starve animals to death if you're willing to do the same to a human being who has lost the only part of themselves that is meaningful...

	22-03-2005 09:18									#205
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quote: Morals only apply to beings. Not things. Terry Schiavo's body is a thing. There is no person there. There hasn't been for fifteen years.

	22-03-2005 09:20									#206
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that goes with out saying but you the smart guy should make it known that everything you guys own goes to you unless your the one that slits her throat. Her parents are simply fighting for her life. regardless of what state she is in the parents should be allowed some decison in whether to starve their kid to death. after all they did give her life.

	22-03-2005 09:21									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten So, I assume you're willing to starve animals to death if you're willing to do the same to a human being who has lost the only part of themselves that is meaningful...

I wouldn't feel bad if a sea cucumber, or some other brainless critter starved to death, no. I feel no qualms about dropping crustaceans and mollusks into boiling water. These are animals that don't reach the level of beings. A modicum of self-awareness is required.

	22-03-2005 09:22									#208
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quote: regardless of what state she is in the parents should be allowed some decison in whether to starve their kid to death.

They've gotten it. The Court has ruled hearing their arguments and rejected them.

	22-03-2005 09:22									#209
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Morals only apply to beings. Not things. Terry Schiavo's body is a thing. There is no person there. There hasn't been for fifteen years.

So, this body, that is a thing, somehow managed to inform the husband of her wishes?

ACK!

	22-03-2005 09:23									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski So, this body, that is a thing, somehow managed to inform the husband of her wishes? ACK!

that was before the incident, DUH