22-03-2005 02:52									#151
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quote: Eh, except that the husband is the legal guardian, not the doctors. It's not even a philosophical issue, it's a legal one. And the doctors are the one who proclaim her in a vegetative state anyway.

No, philosophically it is the doctors providing the service and the expertise... the rest is complicated by politics, and the law is designed to protect human life and accountability, which stark consequentialism is not. Two different approaches... one is clean, clear, true and brutal, the other is kind and chaotic.

	22-03-2005 02:52									#152
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its too simple for people to believe

	22-03-2005 02:54									#153
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quote: I am not just talking about terry schiavo. I am talking about other people that could happen upon this same occurance.

And the law passed by Congress SPECIFICALLY says it only applies to Schiavo and no one else, and it should not be used for any precedential value.

	22-03-2005 02:59									#154
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I understand that no need to yell. But he is clearly being disrespectful to his wives parents and family's ideas of the state she is in. I was merely saying why doesnt he give this family the choice on what happens to her from now on. hes not losing anything if he does that. I have never met anyone so die hard of honoring a loved ones wishes that would continue to fight this long. I am no way saying the husband is a bad person by trying to do this I simply think he should drop it.

	22-03-2005 03:19									#155
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Being mentally retarded in never treated the same as being commatose or vegetative. Such people are assumed to be incapable of making the right decision, BUT they are still concious and capable of doing something- so the assumption, rightly, is that unless they say so, they must be kept alive- and since they can;t really make sucha decision, they are kept alive.

You seem to be assuming that by mentally retarded I meant people with low IQ (for example). Mental retardation includes people who's mental capabilities have degenerated to the levels of Terri Schiavo as well as people born with such levels (as well as those with lower than normal IQ's). As I stated before, there are tens of thousands of people in the USA with mental capabilities as retarded as Terri Schiavo (ie they will not recover and they are not capable of 'doing something'). In essense their mental state is no different from that of Terri Schiavo.

quote: Someone who is comatose or vegetative is not even concious. They are in a whole nother legal category.

Terri Schiavo is clearly concious. Whether they are another legal category is based solely upon a court ruling. I'd rather see the congress make the laws than the courts.

quote: And in this case there is testimony that the patient asked not to be kept in such a state. The courts have found the claim to be valid.

I have no argument with what they accept or dont.

quote: I see no worthwhile parallel between the two situations.

Then you're not paying attention

quote: The Court accepted the statement that the patient did not want to be kept in such a state and evidence that her state is permanent.

I have no argument with what they accept or dont.

quote: Such rulings have occured many times before.

That doesnt make them right. It simply means that congress has been too cowardly to address the issue.

quote: [SIZE=1] The only thing special about this case has been the Schindler's family's adept use of the media and its ability to muster politically connected interest groups to back its losing court case.

Perhaps

quote: No, its American jurisprudence based on the laws passed by the people of the states who have jurisdiction over this civil matter.

What laws?

Euthanasia is illegal.

Stopping extraordinary treatment that maintains an artificial semblance of life is legal under certain circumstances. That decision came from the Karen Ann Quinlan case. Its interesting to note that when the respirator was turned off, Karen Quinlan continued to breathe by herself (I dont remember how many days). No one thought it was OK to starve her to death. I doubt very much that the judge who made the compassionate decision to allow that respirator to be turned off dreamed that it would be the precedent for starving this woman to death.

As I said before, your position seems to be that if a person is incapable of feeding themselves then sustenance is defined as treatment. If they then meet some arbitrary, court defined, level of mental incompetance and some other conditions are met, then 'treatment' may be legally witheld.

That is a bizarre position to take.

	22-03-2005 03:25									#156
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quote: I was merely saying why doesnt he give this family the choice on what happens to her from now on.

Because he loves her and wants to follow her final wishes. Instead of asking the husband to drop it, why don't you ask the family to drop it, after they've been up and down the court and lost every step of the way?

	22-03-2005 03:46									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski I will say for me the only problem I have with this is that you are now putting power in the hands of people that may not have the best interst in mind of the person who is in a positon such as this women .

That's the nub of the tragedy - when you're helpless, no matter how or at what age, certain kinds of people take it upon themselves to make decisions for you. And they are only too willing to do this, in this case from the President down. Think about that - if you were her - she might be brain dead, she might not be, she might be trying to say let me die, she might be trying to say keep me alive. We'll never know.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

	22-03-2005 03:53									#158
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH You seem to be assuming that by mentally retarded I meant people with low IQ (for example). Mental retardation includes people who's mental capabilities have degenerated to the levels of Terri Schiavo as well as people born with such levels (as well as those with lower than normal IQ's). As I stated before, there are tens of thousands of people in the USA with mental capabilities as retarded as Terri Schiavo (ie they will not recover and they are not capable of 'doing something'). In essense their mental state is no different from that of Terri Schiavo.

If they are in a permanent vegitatiev state, and the legal guardians can prove to a court the person wanted to die, no problems.

quote: Terri Schiavo is clearly concious. Whether they are another legal category is based solely upon a court ruling. I'd rather see the congress make the laws than the courts.

WHAT!
You ahev done what? Seen 5 minutes of clips from over 4 hours of tapes? And yet somehow you can make a better judgement than the 5 doctors, 2 for the husband, 2 for the family, and one for thee court found? including one doctor what examined her for 20 hours?

The Courts were in no univers emaking the laws- they had extensive expert testinomy.

quote: What laws? Euthanasia is illegal.

It is legal to remove life support or take out a feeding tube once a person is in a permanent vegitative state, which is WHY the court had her exmained by mutliple doctors.

quote: As I said before, your position seems to be that if a person is incapable of feeding themselves then sustenance is defined as treatment. If they then meet some arbitrary, court defined, level of mental incompetance and some other conditions are met, then 'treatment' may be legally witheld. That is a bizarre position to take.

If the person is a vegetable and the legal guardian decides to end life, that is legal. I am sorry, but it is you who has a starnge position, speically gioven you seem to be significantly ignorant of the findings of fact in this case.

The court decision is NOT arbitrary- 7 years in court, examined by 19 judges, multiple appeals... I fail to see how the courts "made law" with this case.

	22-03-2005 04:53									#159
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Wow, it seems Bush is a big hypocrit:

quote: Bush signed a Texas law in 1999 that created a legal mechanism to allow attending physicians and hospital ethics boards to pull the plug on patients -- even if that specifically contradicts patient or family wishes. As it happens, a major test case for that law was resolved just last week -- with a baby's death. Leigh Hopper writes in the Houston Chronicle: "The baby wore a cute blue outfit with a teddy bear covering his bottom. The 17-pound, 6-month-old boy wiggled with eyes open and smacked his lips, according to his mother. "Then at 2 p.m. today, a medical staffer at Texas Children's Hospital gently removed the breathing tube that had kept Sun Hudson alive since his Sept. 25 birth. Cradled by his mother, he took a few breaths, and died. "Sun's death marks the first time a hospital has been allowed by a U.S. judge to discontinue an infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to bioethical experts. A similar case involving a 68-year-old man in a chronic vegetative state at another Houston hospital is before a court now. . . . "Texas law allows hospitals [to] discontinue life sustaining care, even if patient family members disagree."

from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...r21.html?sub=AR

Culture of life my ass...

	22-03-2005 04:56									#160
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the man you elected 51% of america

	22-03-2005 05:07									#161
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BTW, most of America disagrees with the Republicans on this one...

quote: Gary Langer reports for ABC News on a new ABC News poll which shows: "Americans broadly and strongly disapprove of federal intervention in the Terri Schiavo case, with sizable majorities saying Congress is overstepping its bounds for political gain. . . . "That legislative action is distinctly unpopular: Not only do 60 percent oppose it, more -- 70 percent -- call it inappropriate for Congress to get involved in this way. And by a lopsided 67 percent-19 percent, most think the elected officials trying to keep Schiavo alive are doing so more for political advantage than out of concern for her or for the principles involved. "This ABC News poll also finds that the Schiavo case has prompted an enormous level of personal discussion: Half of Americans say that as a direct result of hearing about this case, they've spoken with friends or family members about what they'd want done if they were in a similar condition. Nearly eight in 10 would not want to be kept alive."

from the same link as before... you can view the full poll results here: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Poll...d=599622&page=2

	22-03-2005 05:36									#162
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is this ***** dead yet?

	22-03-2005 06:04									#163
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good sava you have done lots of homework
And I didnt vote for bush I didnt vote at all

	22-03-2005 06:19									#164
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hmm one of our repesntatives voted for this damn thing. But both of our senators were away and didn't vote.

Jim Gibbons.

	22-03-2005 06:42									#165
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What I'm trying to figure out is why Terry Schiavo is so important to the future of America that the President, Senate, and House all have to involve themselves in prolonging her life? Is she going to give birth to John Conner?

	22-03-2005 06:53									#167
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT What I'm trying to figure out is why Terry Schiavo is so important to the future of America that the President, Senate, and House all have to involve themselves in prolonging her life? Is she going to give birth to John Conner?

Judgment Day is coming...


Actually, with our President, that may have been a thought that crossed his mind .

	22-03-2005 06:55									#168
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ugh, now I have the image of having sex with her in that state. And that sound she makes.

	22-03-2005 07:33									#170
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Is this poor woman going to have a shred of dignity left when this is over?

	22-03-2005 08:24									#171
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She's PVS, so apparently she hasn't had any dignity in a long time...

	22-03-2005 08:27									#172
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From what I've heard (and from FOX News, no less), a greater than normal portion of her cranium is full of spinal fluid rather than brain tissue due to her illness. Like Drake said, dignity has been gone for a while.

	22-03-2005 08:27									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski I will say for me the only problem I have with this is that you are now putting power in the hands of people that may not have the best interst in mind of the person who is in a positon such as this women.

This woman has no interests. I hesitate to even use the term woman to describe it. It's simply a sack of meat. There is no Terry Schiavo. Terry Schiavo ceased to exist fifteen years ago. It's just the corpse is still alive.

	22-03-2005 08:29									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski I.e My husband some how hurts me and puts me in terrys condition, he only wants me out of the way. Pulling the plug is in his best interest not mine.

Not if he gets caught. Then it's in his best interest to keep you alive for as long as possible, so he can avoid a murder charge.

	22-03-2005 08:31									#175
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quote: Like Drake said, dignity has been gone for a while.

I wasn't serious though...

	22-03-2005 08:32									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Like Drake said, dignity has been gone for a while. I wasn't serious though...

But you were correct.

	22-03-2005 08:37									#177
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From an amoral standpoint, yes.

	22-03-2005 08:37									#178
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not if he gets caught. Then it's in his best interest to keep you alive for as long as possible, so he can avoid a murder charge.

But how can he get caught. I cant speak right. I cant point the finger and god knows if there is no proof he wont get caught. But he still needs me out of the way in case I do recover and help send him to jail.

	22-03-2005 08:42									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten From an amoral standpoint, yes.

No, from a moral standpoint as well. Brain dead people do not have human dignity anymore. As much as dead corpses do.

	22-03-2005 08:45									#180
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She's not brain dead. If she was, they wouldn't be using a vague standard like "persistant vegetative state" to justify euthanizing her. She has severe brain damage, which is apparently enough to strip you of all human dignity these days...