13-04-2005 09:36									#181
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They are inexplicably pro-Republican. Asher would vote for them, yes.

	13-04-2005 09:37									#182
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quote: Four or five from Quebec would do wonders.

No different from Preson Manning, when he asks, "ou est lafontaine?"

	13-04-2005 09:37									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi One correction, who believe social justice must also include unborn children.

what has that to do with homosexuals?

Jon Miller
(prolife)

	13-04-2005 09:38									#184
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The problem with that analysis is that the Conservatives field candidates from Winnipeg and going East who simply are overlooked for the most part. Do Quebec Tories hate Central Canada?

A party is not composed of its candidates.

Going by caucus I'm sad to say it's more like 25-75. Going by individual membership it's about half and half. Going by riding associations it's 67-33

	13-04-2005 09:39									#185
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quote: what has that to do with homosexuals?

Prolifers are very much a part of the social justice movement.

You could just as easily say the NDP hate social justice because they are pro abortion.

What does social justice have to do with gay marriage?

	13-04-2005 09:41									#186
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Ben, are you seriously suggesting that the Bloc will win 63 seats?

I'll take the under on 60 any day of the week.

20$, say?

	13-04-2005 09:42									#187
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maybe I was associating down here too much with up there

if so please enlighten me

Jon Miller

	13-04-2005 09:42									#188
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When the election is called I'd like to see the Vegas line on it.

You can bet on anything in that town.

	13-04-2005 09:43									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi One correction, who believe social justice must also include unborn children.

Abortion could never be used as the issue against the Tories that gay rights has been. Abortion is an issue that divides many people from all parties.

Only busy bodies who want to dictate how other people live peaceful lives enjoying ALL the benefits of citizens are giving the Liberals the ammunition they need to stay in power.

Mark my words, if Harper continues to push the issue, the Tories are less likely than the NDP to ever see a majority.

	13-04-2005 09:47									#190
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quote: Only busy bodies who want to dictate how other people live peaceful lives enjoying ALL the benefits of citizens are giving the Liberals the ammunition they need to stay in power.

It's a simple issue. If unborn children are persons, than abortion kills them, and prolifers are involved in social justice ministry in trying to establish laws to protect the unborn, just as others tried to establish laws to protect others who are weak and helpless and unable to defend themselves.

I say Canadians are mature enough to have this discussion without having the party leaders muzzle the debate. Harper's bill nearly failed, and when it comes up again, it will fail.

	13-04-2005 09:50									#191
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quote: Ben, are you seriously suggesting that the Bloc will win 63 seats? I'll take the under on 60 any day of the week.

Avatars.

I think the Liberals are going to find Quebec an uphill battle, when the Tories are outpolling them.

	13-04-2005 09:50									#192
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse A party is not composed of its candidates. Going by caucus I'm sad to say it's more like 25-75. Going by individual membership it's about half and half. Going by riding associations it's 67-33

MPs have a lot of clout.

And the Tories rejected the per person vote on policy. That gives MPs more clout in shaping policy.

Also, just because a riding is West of Ontario does not mean it is inhabited by troglodytes. Or what was the 67-33 supposed to mean?

	13-04-2005 09:56									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It's a simple issue. If unborn children are persons, than abortion kills them, and prolifers are involved in social justice ministry in trying to establish laws to protect the unborn, just as others tried to establish laws to protect others who are weak and helpless and unable to defend themselves. I say Canadians are mature enough to have this discussion without having the party leaders muzzle the debate. Harper's bill nearly failed, and when it comes up again, it will fail.

I said peaceful lives, Ben. To me that means I wasn't referring to abortion, but to gay rights.

The problem is that Harper is reawakening old harpies on an issue that is pure and simply a vote loser in Ontario and Quebec, not to mention some ridings in Edmonton and Vancouver. To me, that seems as if the guy has a political death wish. He is toast if he doesn't break through the next time out. Why would he sabotage himself?

	13-04-2005 10:03									#194
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quote: and simply a vote loser in Ontario and Quebec,

Quite frankly, it's because he disagrees that to stand up for traditional marriage is a vote loser.

	13-04-2005 10:07									#195
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Well, perhaps he and I were not watching the same last few elections.

	13-04-2005 10:14									#196
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Majority reject the bill put forth by the Liberals.

	13-04-2005 10:14									#197
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This is the issue that gives the Liberals traction when they attempt to tar the Conservatives, Ben.

This is the issue that is keeping the Conservatives away from power.

Take this issue off the table, and Martin would have been a short lived PM after he lost the last election.

Too many Canadians are in favour of recognition for gay couples, and too many of them would be Conservative supporters otherwise. Now combine opposition to that with the effects of the abortion debate and the debate over our relationship with the Yanks and too many people get scared off when it comes time to mark the little x while in the polling booth.

Gandhi said something wise one time when he remarked that he had to hurry to catch up with his people. Well, Ben, the Conservatives have to pick their battles and be open to the feelings of the Canadian people. If they try to fight on all fronts, all the time, they will do nothing but lose.

	13-04-2005 10:18									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Majority reject the bill put forth by the Liberals.

Do you mean the vote Harper just lost??

	13-04-2005 10:25									#199
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Here's a tid-bit for you, Ben.

Anne McLellan would likely be a foot note in Parliamentary history by now if it were not for Conservative opposition to gay rights. She has won several elections where the margin of winning was far fewer than the number of people opposed to Tory opposition to gay rights who cast ballots for her to keep a Tory out.

That's in Alberta.

Tell me how many votes this pointless crusade against human dignity has cost in Quebec.

Last edited by notyoueither on 13-04-2005 at 10:31

	13-04-2005 10:27									#200
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Tell me why 10% of Quebecers would sooner vote for the NDP, a party with zero history in the area, over the Conservatives' anemic 12%?

	13-04-2005 10:30									#201
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quote: this pointless crusade against human dignity

Even conservatives in Canada frame the debate in these terms? Man, your country is weird...

	13-04-2005 10:31									#202
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No, I mean the federal bill, put forth by Martin to redefine marriage in parliament.

The majority disagree, and the Conservative party can connect to these people who are without representation by any other federal party.

Given the various flavours of leftish, it's not about adding to their number, but about a fresh stance apart from all the other parties.

quote: Tell me how many votes this pointless crusade against human dignity has cost in Quebec.

These same people will continue to find reasons not to like the Tories, regardless of where they stand on this issue.

The Tories cannot hope to win liberal votes away from the liberals by being more liberal than they. They can hope to win conservative votes away from the Liberals by establishing their position on this issue.

Again, you assume that the majority support gay marriage, and this is just false. If the majority disagree, then Harper is doing himself a grave disservice by catering to the demands of a fringe elite.

	13-04-2005 10:33									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: this pointless crusade against human dignity Even conservatives in Canada frame the debate in these terms? Man, your country is weird...

What other terms can you put it in when your brothers/sisters/cousins/sons/daughters/fathers/mothers are being denied basic recognition of their state of being and choice of partner? ie, they are being denied their human rights.

	13-04-2005 10:35									#204
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quote: What other terms can you put it in when your brothers/sisters/cousins/sons/daughters/fathers/mothers are being denied basic recognition of their state of being and choice of partner?

Recognition of traditional and customary reality?

quote: ie, they are being denied their human rights.

I see no convincing evidence of that.

	13-04-2005 10:37									#205
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Then there is also the point that some larger religious sects are attempting to tell smaller religious sects who they can and cannot perform marriage ceremonies for.

There's another social faux paus in my book.

	13-04-2005 10:39									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: What other terms can you put it in when your brothers/sisters/cousins/sons/daughters/fathers/mothers are being denied basic recognition of their state of being and choice of partner? Recognition of traditional and customary reality? quote: ie, they are being denied their human rights. I see no convincing evidence of that.

I do when the tax code, family law, inheritance and a myriad of other government sanctioned or organised conventions are excluding people who happen to love a person with the incorrect chromozones.

	13-04-2005 10:44									#207
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quote: I do when the tax code, family law, inheritance and a myriad of other government sanctioned or organised conventions are excluding people who happen to love a person with the incorrect chromozones.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm just find it strange and interesting that public opinion in Canada is seemingly so one-sided on an issue this complex.

	13-04-2005 10:46									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi No, I mean the federal bill, put forth by Martin to redefine marriage in parliament. The majority disagree, and the Conservative party can connect to these people who are without representation by any other federal party. Given the various flavours of leftish, it's not about adding to their number, but about a fresh stance apart from all the other parties.

You have read entrails that suggest a majority of Canadians favour federal legislation against gay marriage? IOW, do you have a poll to base that on?

quote: These same people will continue to find reasons not to like the Tories, regardless of where they stand on this issue. The Tories cannot hope to win liberal votes away from the liberals by being more liberal than they. They can hope to win conservative votes away from the Liberals by establishing their position on this issue. Again, you assume that the majority support gay marriage, and this is just false. If the majority disagree, then Harper is doing himself a grave disservice by catering to the demands of a fringe elite.

You sound a bit like an inquisitor. 'They don't like it so they can burn for all I care.' But guess what, Ben, it isn't they who will burn, it is the chances of the Conservatives to form governments that go up in smoke. Sponsorship scandals be damned. I fear most Central Canadians would prefer the NDP with the balance of power over the Liberals to keep them honest than would favour a socially regressive government to come to power.

	13-04-2005 10:54									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I do when the tax code, family law, inheritance and a myriad of other government sanctioned or organised conventions are excluding people who happen to love a person with the incorrect chromozones. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm just find it strange and interesting that public opinion in Canada is seemingly so one-sided on an issue this complex.

It isn't, but the problem the Tories have is that a large number of their likely supporters (read federalists in Quebec, and some fiscal conservatives elsewhere) put social policy ahead of economic.

They would vote Tory but for the danger that is presented to them daily during election campaigns. Let me put it this way. No true lefty would vote for a Tory under most circumstances. However, many Tories are of the red variety and do not think that a party that seeks to roll back recent court rulings is fit to govern. In short, the Tories are depriving themselves of the people who have put them over the top in any past elections they have won.

The Tories have to get over the 'find loaded gun, aim at foot, fire!' syndrome.

	13-04-2005 11:04									#210
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quote: However, many Tories are of the red variety and do not think that a party that seeks to roll back recent court rulings is fit to govern.

Sorry, but I'm drawing a blank on the possible Canadian meaning of "red variety". Little help?