11-04-2005 00:52									#61
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 domino effect

It's real.

	11-04-2005 00:58									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko You really should see the National War Memorial building here in Seoul, the propaganda is really hot and heavy, the brave Korean resistance forces drove out the evil Japanese invaders with only incidental (and barely-mentioned) American help...

As far as the Korean peninsula is concerned, they're right. Now, if you take into account the fact that it was only possible for them to do so because we defeated Japan, well, then, maybe they should have something mentioning us.

	11-04-2005 01:51									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan I'm sorry, but once I read this the rest of the post was meaningless. I mean, I understand that the atrocities committed by the Japanese army was horrible, but to use these slurs are just as disrespectable. Let's not forget America's internment of Japanese-Americans ILLEGALLY. Bigotry----->

Its not a slur to everyone. Lancer was using it like "brits" or "yanks".

And as far as I know, every allied country interned minorities during ww2. I know Canada did at least.

	11-04-2005 02:19									#64
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye This is a worrisome intersection of nationalism and racism. Few Chinese have ever met a Japanese, yet many (and increasingly more) will openly and unabashedly declare that they hate the Japanese. Not object to their history books, but HATE all Japanese people.

Hehe, I recognize this. One of my Chinese friends can't say anything positive about a Japanese person/product/etc without first stating something like "you know how much I hate the Japanese, but..."

	11-04-2005 02:46									#65
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Sadly, racism seems to be becoming increasingly fashionable of late in China. Today there was a large-scale anti-Japanese protest in Beijing which was broken up by riot police (no tanks, this time - it was a gov't-approved protest). Several other cities (Chongqing, Shenzhen) have had violent protests recently which, like today's in Beijing, involved attacks on Japanese businesses. There is an anti-Japanese on-line petition making the rounds in China, now boasting between twenty and thirty gajillion signatures urging the gov't to take sterner measures against Japan. Even normal, middle-class white collars in Shanghai are now getting excited about boycotting Japanese goods. This is a worrisome intersection of nationalism and racism. Few Chinese have ever met a Japanese, yet many (and increasingly more) will openly and unabashedly declare that they hate the Japanese. Not object to their history books, but HATE all Japanese people. Beijing has in the past fanned the anti-Japanese hysteria, but is now showing some signs of concern over their Frankenstien's monster. A massive on-line petition and riots against Japan are one thing, but what happens the next time another "BMW Killer" story excites the Chinese SMS network? It's ironic that when westerners bring up human rights/Tibet/Taiwan/etc, one of the most common Chinese arguments is: "that is an internal Chinese affair, foreigners should butt out!" Yet it seems this does not apply to internal Japanese decisions about textbooks.

BMW killer?

	11-04-2005 10:01									#66
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Government-encouraged racism.

	11-04-2005 10:31									#67
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quote: Reducing protests is irrelevent if it doesn't lead to an increase in the amount of concrete support the boondoggle would get

I don't think it is irrelevent at all, at least not in terms of long term foriegn policy where it'd be better to have somewhat friendly European countries as opposed to highly skeptical European countries.

quote: It's idealistic to expect govts to be accountable for their human rights violations instead of creating diversions?

Yes. And it's obvious. Try living in the real world and you'll see why.

quote: Basically anything to help a state (no matter how ****ed up the state is) remain and increase it's power is thumbs up to you because that's practical.

I'm still trying to figure out how you came up with this sentence (and if anyone other than you understands it) and if you understand why people look at practical solutions (ie, they work). Practicality gets things done (that's kind of what the word means).

Actually eating babies is not practical because it's illegal, hence highly impractical, unless you like prision .

quote: Imran, I take it that you're one of those who think that the Arab dictators fear America more now that its budget has been bled dry and its forces overstretched?

I think Arab dictators now realize that the US won't turn a blind eye. That seems to have changed some of their behaviors.

	11-04-2005 10:55									#68
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Sadly, racism seems to be becoming increasingly fashionable of late in China.

Not just China.

I've noticed in East Asia, or at least the places I have visited, that there is a general lack of awareness about why racism is wrong. There is flagrant discrimination everywhere.

The Japanese are notoriously racist, posting signs at businesses saying no foreigners allowed.

In Hong Kong, foreigners can become citizens after living here for seven years, except for those who are working here as maids.

Bars here let white people in for free while charging other people cover charges.

Meanwhile the Hong Kong government maintains there is no discrimination here (the colonial government did the same).

And the foreigners in Hong Kong can be as racist as the locals.

	11-04-2005 11:20									#69
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As far as the Korean peninsula is concerned, they're right. Now, if you take into account the fact that it was only possible for them to do so because we defeated Japan, well, then, maybe they should have something mentioning us.

Because the Korean resistance was on the verge of driving the Japanese army out of the Korea at the end of WWII Korea probably gave the Japanese less problems than any other group they conquered with the possible exception of the Taiwanese.

	11-04-2005 11:29									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The Japanese are notoriously racist, posting signs at businesses saying no foreigners allowed.

That probably just meant "No Asians." Whites are fine.

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai In Hong Kong, foreigners can become citizens after living here for seven years, except for those who are working here as maids.

I don't think that has anything to do with racism, though.

	11-04-2005 11:34									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I don't think that has anything to do with racism, though.

Poor Pinays

	11-04-2005 11:40									#72
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Huh?

	11-04-2005 11:43									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Huh?

What is the ethnicity of the bulk of the maids in Hong Kong?

	11-04-2005 11:47									#74
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Chinese

	11-04-2005 12:43									#75
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My girlfriend is from Nanjing... and, predictably, has a knee-jerk distaste for Japan and Japanese culture. But even she said that the riots were irresponsible.

Its kind of sad really... 16 years ago the Chinese were demonstrating for something meaningful... political reform. But I guess the only kind of demonstration that the Government approves of is the kind we've been seeing; nationalist rallies of youths venting their (understandable) anger on Japan.

.... at least they won't get massacred for that.

	11-04-2005 12:48									#76
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Believe it or not I'm not racist against any asians or anyone else. (married one) I consider 'Japs' to be short for Japanese and easier to type.

	11-04-2005 13:07									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Dracon II Its kind of sad really... 16 years ago the Chinese were demonstrating for something meaningful... political reform. But I guess the only kind of demonstration that the Government approves of is the kind we've been seeing; nationalist rallies of youths venting their (understandable) anger on Japan.

It's not meaningless - I won't say attempts to make the Japanese government to see the error of its ways and to correct them is meaningless.

Nanjing Massacre deniers are just as bad as Holocaust deniers.

Germany is deeply aware of its atrocities during WWII, and is committed not to repeat the same mistakes. Japan is not; in fact, a series of action on its part indicate that it is moving away from a course similar to the one Germany took.

	11-04-2005 13:12									#78
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Wasn't saying it was meaningless. I know full well about the Nanjing massacre, the chemical warfare tests in Manchuguo and the fact that China and Korea were the first victims of WWII. The textbook fiasco is something the Chinese should rightly be angry about. I am simply lamenting the fact that matters of immediate import to China aren't dealt with in the same spirit.... but I guess the cloud of the "June 4 Incident" (as the CCP coldly represents it) still hangs heavy over the Chinese people.

	11-04-2005 13:17									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I wouldn't be suprised to find out that history books in China and SK are similarly biased pieces of crap.

So true. Pot meet kettle.

	11-04-2005 13:20									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's not meaningless - I won't say attempts to make the Japanese government to see the error of its ways and to correct them is meaningless.

If 17 official apologies aren't enough I doubt the 18th will make detractors happy. Also how old are the kids who are supposed to be reading these text books? If they're for kids younger then high school then there really is no need to go into graphic detail.

	11-04-2005 13:29									#81
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 all i know is, asians are for the most part ultranationalistic loonies, so go figure

It has to do with a deep seated inferiority complex many Asians have visa vie the west. A couple of centuries of getting kicked around, colonized, and shown up would probably make any group uber nationalistic and want to laud their successes when they came.

	11-04-2005 14:26									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's not meaningless - I won't say attempts to make the Japanese government to see the error of its ways and to correct them is meaningless. Nanjing Massacre deniers are just as bad as Holocaust deniers.

I think that shouting "I hate all Japanese!" is pointless and counterproductive, especially from a culture where shouting and becoming red-faced is a general sign of weakness and foolishness.

The problem is that the racism that is brewing is not directed at those Japanese responsible but the entire population and anything connected to them for something that happened over 50 years ago. A bit extreme. Do you punish the son for the sins of the father? Even if the children of Japan are ignorant of their history, should they be treated with scorn for being mislead by their authority? If so, is it ok to treat Chinese with scorn, if they prove to be ignorant in controversial topics?

The other problem is that shouting, "I hate you!" is unlikely to get the response you want. In fact, China's very vidictive attitude toward Japan with only push Japan toward nationalism, much like the treatment of Germany after World War I hepled lead to the rise of the Nazi party. China is creating it's own monster, and the more violent they become the less they will look like the victims and the more like the aggressors (it's not difficult to find information on recent assaults on Japanese citizens by Chinese citizens).

As Dracon points out, the method of protests here is entirely different. The Tiannanmen protests were a plead for change. These current protests only show hate. If the Chinese are truly interested in seeing a change in Japan perhaps their slogans should change from "We hate all Japanese!" to "Hey Japan! You're wrong! Fix it stupid ****ers!" Thus, getting the point across that China is still unhappy with the situation but is welcoming improvement.

Then again, that would be the rational approach. And mobs never behave that way, except that one time but that won't be tolerated again.

	11-04-2005 15:59									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Az maybe they think that Japanese schoolbooks are also an internal Chinese affair.

Why not, Tibetan religion is.

	11-04-2005 16:01									#84
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn And as far as I know, every allied country interned minorities during ww2. I know Canada did at least.

Isn't it high time Canada let it's internees go?

	11-04-2005 19:41									#85
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****. I knew we forgot to do something.

Stop producing tanks, check
Stop censoring mail, check
Release interned Japanese, oops

	11-04-2005 19:42									#86
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Oh well. It's not like they're people.

	11-04-2005 21:04									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DanS BMW killer?

Last year a farmer on a tractor scraped a woman's BMW SUV's side mirror. During the ensuing argument, the SUV suddenly lunged forward, killing the farmer's wife. The driver claimed it was an accident. The woman was a minor official's wife, and got off fairly easily (in my opinion, it probably really was an accident).

However, the incident escalated into an arrogant-rich-folks-exploit-poor-workers conflict that was the talk of the nation for a number of weeks. The facts weren't important, it was dry tinder for wealth-gap frustration.

There have beena growing number of such incidents, I believe DaShi posted the amazing story of how one (in Chongqing, IIR) started with an arrogant minor official threatening to have a hapless worker killed because he accidentally brushed up against his wife, soiling her clothing. Before it was over, city officials and police were huddling inside a gov't building while thousands of citizens pounded it with organized volleys of concrete rocks.

With this kind of tension brewing, it's easy to see why the Party might see anti-Japanese racism as a convenient outlet.

	11-04-2005 21:06									#88
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i think china needs a purging!

	11-04-2005 21:15									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That probably just meant "No Asians." Whites are fine.

Actually, they do mean whites, at least in the city which one of my (white American) friends just left. He moved from Shanghai to Hokkaido, but just returned, in part because of Japanese racism. He confronted a few local businesses over their "no foreigner" signs, they explained that the problem was mainly rowdy Russian sailors. Solving this by banning all "foreigners" seems a bit overkill, though.

(BTW, "pinay" = female Philippino)

	11-04-2005 21:24									#90
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ive heard that story before mindseye.

p.s. lets hear it for the lovely pinays!