11-04-2005 21:35									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Germany is deeply aware of its atrocities during WWII, and is committed not to repeat the same mistakes. Japan is not; in fact, a series of action on its part indicate that it is moving away from a course similar to the one Germany took.

Who cares if they don't take the same path Germany took? It's not the same govt. If you seriously think that there is any chance that Japan is going to invade China you're crazy. So why should the Chinese govt be concerned with what is written in Japanese textbooks.

	11-04-2005 21:47									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes. And it's obvious. Try living in the real world and you'll see why.

You can live in the real world and see how ****ed up it is. Maybe you aren't aware of that. You seem to think that the world is good by default because it is the 'real' world.

quote: quote: Basically anything to help a state (no matter how ****ed up the state is) remain and increase it's power is thumbs up to you because that's practical. I'm still trying to figure out how you came up with this sentence (and if anyone other than you understands it) and if you understand why people look at practical solutions (ie, they work). Practicality gets things done (that's kind of what the word means).

And I'm still trying to understand why you think that things are working good just because they are working. There is such a thing as working poorly as in not achieving your goals. You are saying that immoral acts create a better world. Well I don't see things that way. The world is ****ed up. You don't seem to notice that. Maybe because it works fine for you, but that doesn't mean it works for the rest of us.

	12-04-2005 00:12									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi I think that shouting "I hate all Japanese!" is pointless and counterproductive, especially from a culture where shouting and becoming red-faced is a general sign of weakness and foolishness. The problem is that the racism that is brewing is not directed at those Japanese responsible but the entire population and anything connected to them for something that happened over 50 years ago. A bit extreme. Do you punish the son for the sins of the father? Even if the children of Japan are ignorant of their history, should they be treated with scorn for being mislead by their authority? If so, is it ok to treat Chinese with scorn, if they prove to be ignorant in controversial topics?

I think you whitewash the problem. It was virtually all the Japanese who took part in the abuse of the Chinese, Koreans, et al.

As to forgiveness, this requires acknowledgement of guilt and repentenance. I think it is clear that the Japanese have not fully accepted their guilt and are not repentent given that the issue of textbooks keeps coming up again and again and again.

I say that China should not back down, but should insist that Japan revise those textbooks and should do everything necessary to not repeat its error in the future.

	12-04-2005 00:21									#94
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quote: And I'm still trying to understand why you think that things are working good just because they are working. There is such a thing as working poorly as in not achieving your goals. You are saying that immoral acts create a better world. Well I don't see things that way. The world is ****ed up. You don't seem to notice that. Maybe because it works fine for you, but that doesn't mean it works for the rest of us.

So your solution is to propose ideas that have no chance in Hell of being implimented or working. Riiiiiight, that'll help.

Why don't you just sit in the corner, smoke your pot, and let us continue to ignore you.

If you don't suggest practical solutions, then you are irrelevent. Who cares about proposals which cannot be implimented?!

	12-04-2005 00:31									#95
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Imran, the OT and everything said here is irrelevant.

	12-04-2005 01:04									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So your solution is to propose ideas that have no chance in Hell of being implimented or working. Riiiiiight, that'll help.

What are you talking about? I didn't propose a solution. You did. You're trying to back up you claim that it's good for govts to create diversions from their own oppresive actions. Somehow you think this is good for the world. All you have agrued so far is that it's good because it's practical. Sure it's practical, because it helps them maintain their power. So ****ing what?

	12-04-2005 01:30									#97
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quote: You're trying to back up you claim that it's good for govts to create diversions from their own oppresive actions.

When the criticism of another country's abuses is valid, who cares for what reason that criticism is being released? The fact that they are pointing out the abuses in another country, which are valid and supportable, is something that is good, yes.

quote: All you have agrued so far is that it's good because it's practical.

Um... what? If they are already doing it then it isn't idealistic, that's for certain. It's good because they are sheding light on valid abuses. To be mad because they aren't focusing on their own abuses is silly. They are a totalitarian state. It is impractical to expect them to criticize themselves. THAT is what I mean when I say live in the real world. They are not going to say they were all wrong, so holding out for that is inane.

	12-04-2005 01:48									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You're trying to back up you claim that it's good for govts to create diversions from their own oppresive actions. When the criticism of another country's abuses is valid, who cares for what reason that criticism is being released?

People who don't want oppresive govts to have more power to oppress care.

quote: The fact that they are pointing out the abuses in another country, which are valid and supportable, is something that is good, yes.

Only if you don't care about oppressive govts fanning the flames of hatred with their own population in order to oppress that population, which seems to be the case with you.

quote: quote: All you have agrued so far is that it's good because it's practical. Um... what? If they are already doing it then it isn't idealistic, that's for certain. It's good because they are sheding light on valid abuses. To be mad because they aren't focusing on their own abuses is silly. They are a totalitarian state. It is impractical to expect them to criticize themselves. THAT is what I mean when I say live in the real world. They are not going to say they were all wrong, so holding out for that is inane.

I'm not holding out for anything. I'm simply saying that this is a case of an oppressive govt fanning the flames of hatred in order to divert attention from themselves, and that aint good, because it's increasing that govts ability to oppress, which is the real problem. Who the hell cares about the damn textbooks in Japan?

	12-04-2005 02:07									#99
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quote: People who don't want oppresive govts to have more power to oppress care.

And they gain more power as a result because.....

How is China getting more power from this? Are you telling me that if they didn't focus on Japanese atrocities, there would be a democratic revolution in China?

quote: if you don't care about oppressive govts fanning the flames of hatred with their own population in order to oppress that population

See above.

And frankly, I think that it is quite alright for an ethnic group which was subject to a genocide to display hate against the people responsible if they don't seem to acknowledge their errors.

I don't begrudge Jews for hating Neo-Nazis, do you?

quote: I'm simply saying that this is a case of an oppressive govt fanning the flames of hatred in order to divert attention from themselves, and that aint good, because it's increasing that govts ability to oppress, which is the real problem.

Like I said, because if they weren't pissed over the genocide, they'd overthrow the government? Please... they remember Tienamen Square. The Chinese government doesn't dick around on these things.

	12-04-2005 02:19									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: People who don't want oppresive govts to have more power to oppress care. And they gain more power as a result because..... How is China getting more power from this? Are you telling me that if they didn't focus on Japanese atrocities, there would be a democratic revolution in China?

It's a method of control over the population just like driving tanks throught mass protests is. You don't think they want to rely on tanks only do you?

quote: quote: if you don't care about oppressive govts fanning the flames of hatred with their own population in order to oppress that population See above. And frankly, I think that it is quite alright for an ethnic group which was subject to a genocide to display hate against the people responsible if they don't seem to acknowledge their errors.

I don't have a problem with protests. My problem is with the Chinese govt using propaganda. The protestors I'll listen too, but **** the Chinese govt, and I would think that the Chinese people would feel the same way, or at least they should.

quote: quote: I'm simply saying that this is a case of an oppressive govt fanning the flames of hatred in order to divert attention from themselves, and that aint good, because it's increasing that govts ability to oppress, which is the real problem. Like I said, because if they weren't pissed over the genocide, they'd overthrow the government? Please... they remember Tienamen Square. The Chinese government doesn't dick around on these things.

The Chinese govt is very afraid of an uprising. Sure they don't dick around, but that doesn't mean that if enough people get pissed off enough that they will be able to stop an uprising or that they would even want it to come to a point where they would have to. Propaganda is a tool of maintaining control.

	12-04-2005 04:35									#101
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quote: That probably just meant "No Asians." Whites are fine.

No, it's actually targeted almost exclusively at Russian sailors. Shows how much you know.

edit: Damn you, mindseye!

quote: The textbook fiasco is something the Chinese should rightly be angry about.

Actually, it's not. It's just a time-tested tactic for riling up nationalistic fervor in the Chinese population in order to distract them from the more immediate problems with their own government. The only really interesting thing about these recent riots is the suspicion that the CCP might be losing control of this nationalistic hatred of Japan that they've been maintaining and cultivating for so long.

	12-04-2005 04:37									#102
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quote: Oh well. It's not like they're people.

	12-04-2005 05:45									#103
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We mostly hear about the suppression of democratic activists in China here in the west... but they seem to be arresting Maoists nowadays too.

http://www.monthlyreview.org/0105commentary.htm

(Mind you, the Chinese Government has always had an ambiguous relationship with Mao and has a history of arresting leftist, as well as rightist elements).

But it would be interesting to know just how much the unrest in China is actually about liberal ideals (as we like to flatter ourselves thinking) rather than the tumultuous economic changes that have been occurring there since 1978.

	12-04-2005 06:28									#104
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 p.s. lets hear it for the lovely pinays!

Before Shanghai, I lived in San Francisco for 18 years. Most of the pinoys & pinays I knew (and in some cases was lucky enough to call good friends or even flatmate) were white collar professionals (engineers, programmers, acountants, technicians) or in health care (doctors, nurses), along with some blue collars (especially auto mechanics).

Imagine my shock on my first trip to Hong Kong island on a Sunday afternoon to see thousands of pinays, virtually every one of them a ... maid!

I felt like I had wandered into some alternate universe where Filipinos weren't respected, educated middle class citizens, but were some sort of disrespected (and sometimes physically abused) underclass of servants. I really felt awful about this.

Here in Shanghai there are few Filipinos, most of them are rock musicians at hotels and nightclubs. Still not much respect, but least a step up from servitude.

I really miss Filipino culture (except maybe the food ... )

	12-04-2005 07:03									#105
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quote: My problem is with the Chinese govt using propaganda.

So you think they'll just stop if you express disapproval? They are going to continue to do it, and they should, seeing as how the Japanese engaged in a Holocaust against their people. The Chinese government is going to continue to do what they do, so welcome any valid abuses they can report on, and report on their abuses yourself. That's how the story goes.

	12-04-2005 07:08									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Dracon II We mostly hear about the suppression of democratic activists in China here in the west... but they seem to be arresting Maoists nowadays too. http://www.monthlyreview.org/0105commentary.htm (Mind you, the Chinese Government has always had an ambiguous relationship with Mao and has a history of arresting leftist, as well as rightist elements). But it would be interesting to know just how much the unrest in China is actually about liberal ideals (as we like to flatter ourselves thinking) rather than the tumultuous economic changes that have been occurring there since 1978.

Of course the political beliefs are unimportant, all that ideology business is just window dressing for power politics. That is China.

There is a very revealing passage in the biography of Mao written by his personal physician in which the Party leaders hold an emergency meeting just after the seizure of the Gang of Four. They are trying to decide if the Gang of Four should be imprisoned because they are rightists, or imprisoned because they are leftists.

Some things haven't changed.

Regarding Mao, I think most educated, urban Chinese are now fairly realistic about him, they do not revere him as a saint, but as a great leader who made some huge mistakes. If I ask a class to each describe a person they dislike, there are usually one or two students who choose Mao.

	12-04-2005 07:36									#107
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quote: They are going to continue to do it, and they should, seeing as how the Japanese engaged in a Holocaust against their people.

1/10

I really shouldn't have given you any points due to the invocation of Godwin, but I did anyway. What can I say? I'm a generous man...

	12-04-2005 07:39									#108
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http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Holocaust

Definition 2.b.

quote: A massive slaughter: “an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust� (Rod Nordland).

---

	12-04-2005 07:41									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: My problem is with the Chinese govt using propaganda. So you think they'll just stop if you express disapproval? They are going to continue to do it, and they should, seeing as how the Japanese engaged in a Holocaust against their people. The Chinese government is going to continue to do what they do, so welcome any valid abuses they can report on, and report on their abuses yourself. That's how the story goes.

Imran's point is a good one, Chinese reaction should not detract from the merit of the accusations. The overt racism growing here is dangerous and deplorable, yet it should not obscure the validity of the criticisms.

	12-04-2005 07:41									#110
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If you were using it as a general noun, why'd you capitalize it?

	12-04-2005 07:42									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten If you were using it as a general noun, why'd you capatalize it?

Why not?

	12-04-2005 07:43									#112
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quote: Why not?

Now you're being purposefully obtuse. Actually, you probably have been the whole time...

	12-04-2005 11:28									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If 17 official apologies aren't enough I doubt the 18th will make detractors happy.

What offical apologies? There has been none, zilch, nada.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If they're for kids younger then high school then there really is no need to go into graphic detail.

Graphical details?

It would be nice to state that Japan invaded China, Korea and a number of SE Asian countries, comitted wanton murders and a bunch of other atrocities, etc. That is a nice start.

	12-04-2005 11:36									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi I think that shouting "I hate all Japanese!" is pointless and counterproductive

I didn't any of that in the coverage for the Beijing, Guangzhou and Shenzhen protests. The banners had slogans such as "Boycott Japanese goods," "Down with Little Japan," etc. I even saw protestors tangled with reporters using Japanese equipment.

But there wasn't any "I hate all Japanese."

	12-04-2005 11:38									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Who cares if they don't take the same path Germany took?

We do. Isn't that obvious?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If you seriously think that there is any chance that Japan is going to invade China you're crazy.

That is not the point.

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious So why should the Chinese govt be concerned with what is written in Japanese textbooks.

Why should Jews care about Holocaust deniers?

	12-04-2005 11:39									#116
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quote: What offical apologies? There has been none, zilch, nada.

Wrong again, as usual...

	12-04-2005 14:44									#117
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There have been individual apologies by various Japanese, but no official apology to China.

	12-04-2005 15:07									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think you whitewash the problem. It was virtually all the Japanese who took part in the abuse of the Chinese, Koreans, et al.

Really? There hasn't been a single birth in Japan for fifty years. That's amazing!

	12-04-2005 15:08									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I didn't any of that in the coverage for the Beijing, Guangzhou and Shenzhen protests. The banners had slogans such as "Boycott Japanese goods," "Down with Little Japan," etc. I even saw protestors tangled with reporters using Japanese equipment. But there wasn't any "I hate all Japanese."

You're joking, right?

	12-04-2005 15:38									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui China I can see . I have more faith in South Korea's textbooks. I'm not up on South Korean history, but I don't think they have anything quite like the Rape of Nanking to cover up.

They do actually

The Japanese considered Korea an integral part of Japan and conscripted Koreans into the Japanese armed forces. The Japanese army was what I call a "kick em in the guts" army. It had tough discipline, based on fear and physical punishment. Everyone was brutalised in the Japanese army and Koreans were treated even worse as kind of second class Japanese.

I don't know if there were Koreans at Nanking but I do know that Koreans were often used as prison guards for allied POWs and they were notorious for their cruelty.

Many Koreans were hanged as war criminals after the war.