09-04-2005 01:26									#31
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No, because there is a way to do neo-conservatism practically, even though it is an idealistic ethos. You target the proper states to get a domino effect. It seems Iraq was pretty good for that... only except that we lied about why we went there and then strung up Iraqis and took pictures, and then sent too few troops.

Practical neo-conservatism is possible. Bush, however, doesn't realize that.

	09-04-2005 01:35									#32
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quote: No, because there is a way to do neo-conservatism practically,

No. There isn't. Paying homage to the concept of practicality would have kept us from invading Iraq after the will to mantain the sanctions had been reestablished. Anything else only serves to tie down our armed forces even further for aims of no clear benefit.

	09-04-2005 03:43									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: No, because there is a way to do neo-conservatism practically, No. There isn't. Paying homage to the concept of practicality would have kept us from invading Iraq after the will to mantain the sanctions had been reestablished. Anything else only serves to tie down our armed forces even further for aims of no clear benefit.

Yes there and it includes a smart and sensible invasion of Iraq. One where we don't lie about WMD and all that crap and one where we put enough troops in the field, where we come down hard and swift at the Abu Ghirab idiots. Basically it is to do the war right and don't just this ideological things where it was thought we only needed a small force and they'd all welcome us with open arms, yadda. You can invade a country practically and impractically.

The benefit is the small amounts of democratic change which are occuring in the ME and North Africa. If Bush wasn't such a moron, it may have been much quicker at the moment.

Even for all those errors though, going into Iraq was a good idea.

	09-04-2005 04:22									#34
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quote: With idealism, you get Bush's foriegn policy.

a) I have no problem with his foreign policy, but with it's driving force, and it's tactical approach to things.

b)OMG, NAZIS WERE IDEALISTS TOO.

	09-04-2005 06:38									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, because there is a way to do neo-conservatism practically, even though it is an idealistic ethos. You target the proper states to get a domino effect. It seems Iraq was pretty good for that... only except that we lied about why we went there and then strung up Iraqis and took pictures, and then sent too few troops. Practical neo-conservatism is possible. Bush, however, doesn't realize that.

domino effect

	09-04-2005 07:31									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes there and it includes a smart and sensible invasion of Iraq.

There's no such thing. He had little support among the international community over weak claims that Iraq constituted a threat. What makes you think that esoteric claims to be spreading freedom at gun point would have flown any better?

quote: The benefit is the small amounts of democratic change which are occuring in the ME and North Africa.

It's ironic to see a person who decries concepts such as right and wrong as being outdated would seek to advance an ideaology so deeply rooted in such concepts.

quote: Even for all those errors though, going into Iraq was a good idea.

How?

	09-04-2005 07:47									#37
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quote: China and South Korea have excoriated Japan over its approval of new school books which they say whitewash the atrocities committed during Japanese occupation. The lingering bitterness over Japan’s past imperialism still threatens to mar relations between the big East Asian powers

Excoriated? Some people sure like to get their money's worth out of their Thesaurus. I guess 'strongly disapproved' is too clear?

	09-04-2005 08:04									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer During the Japanese occupation of the Philippines the Japs would randomly start hacking at passerby with their swords just to test the sharpness. Many Filipinas were raped, in fact today the Japanese advertise on local TV in my little town of Jagna on Bohol island for girls to become 'dancing girls' in Japan. The Japs fly them over, train them and put them in strip clubs where they are preasured into prostitution. The girls aren't forced to it as in WW2, except economicly they sometimes have little choice if the like to eat. I wanted to put an advertisement on the same TV chanel explaining what 'dancing girls' would end up doing, but people explained to me that the girls already know, they hate to do it, but they have little option.

I'm sorry, but once I read this the rest of the post was meaningless. I mean, I understand that the atrocities committed by the Japanese army was horrible, but to use these slurs are just as disrespectable.

Let's not forget America's internment of Japanese-Americans ILLEGALLY.

Bigotry----->

	09-04-2005 08:20									#39
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the only good jap is a racially slurred jap

	09-04-2005 08:23									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Who should the Chinese fear the most the Japanese or their own govt? What good is propaganda designed against the Japanese?

This is not propaganda, because the Japanese government has been revising HS textbooks and refusing to apologise for their atocities. Japanese courts refuse to sentence Japanese companies that enslaved people from other counties as workers. The rightwinger in Diet still worships war criminals every year.

	09-04-2005 08:25									#41
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 the only good jap is a racially slurred jap

Getting close to the holiday resort there...

	09-04-2005 08:29									#42
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I get the sarcasm.

No worries, beef curries.

	09-04-2005 09:22									#43
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beef curries indeed!

	09-04-2005 10:28									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I have more faith in South Korea's textbooks.

Why? Koreans won't even call the Sea of Japan by its accepted name...

quote: With idealism, you get Bush's foriegn policy.

God forbid...

	09-04-2005 10:30									#45
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all i know is, asians are for the most part ultranationalistic loonies, so go figure

	09-04-2005 10:33									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 all i know is, asians are for the most part ultranationalistic loonies, so go figure

True enough. The crazy part is that the Japanese are the least nationalistic of the lot...

	09-04-2005 10:34									#47
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Bastid. I don't agree with the textbooks, BUT,,,those islands rightfully belonging to Japan should be returned to Japan.

Ultranationalistic? Let's visit N. Korea. Crazy azz biz-natches.

	09-04-2005 12:54									#48
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quote: I have more faith in South Korea's textbooks.

You really should see the National War Memorial building here in Seoul, the propaganda is really hot and heavy, the brave Korean resistance forces drove out the evil Japanese invaders with only incidental (and barely-mentioned) American help...

	09-04-2005 12:56									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten True enough. The crazy part is that the Japanese are the least nationalistic of the lot...

indeed

	09-04-2005 22:08									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc There's no such thing. He had little support among the international community over weak claims that Iraq constituted a threat. What makes you think that esoteric claims to be spreading freedom at gun point would have flown any better?

It's a worthy cause which would have prevented a lot of the protests even if it did not gain us more allies to us in the fighting. Reducing the amount of protests is a good thing.

quote: It's ironic to see a person who decries concepts such as right and wrong as being outdated would seek to advance an ideaology so deeply rooted in such concepts

.

What people believe the ideology to be is irrelevent. The fact is that democracies tend not to fight other democracies. It helps the US out by, in the long run, avoiding another large scale Arab-Israeli war.

quote: How?

Look around. Iraq having moderates in positions of power who are willing to work with the US instead of trying to rile up the population against us. Lebanon kicking out Syrian influence. Palestinians electing a moderate voice after the death of Arafat. All of those things were a direct or indirect effect of the overthrowing of the Saddamite (hehe) regime and replacing it with a nascent democratic one. It allowed others in other countries to have to courage to see that it possibly could work.

	09-04-2005 22:11									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan I'm sorry, but once I read this the rest of the post was meaningless. I mean, I understand that the atrocities committed by the Japanese army was horrible, but to use these slurs are just as disrespectable. Let's not forget America's internment of Japanese-Americans ILLEGALLY. Bigotry----->

ZOMFG! It's as disrespectful to use a racial slur as it is to RAPE someone!

	09-04-2005 22:29									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Reducing the amount of protests is a good thing.

Reducing protests is irrelevent if it doesn't lead to an increase in the amount of concrete support the boondoggle would get and you've yet to lay out a plausible case for that happening under your scenario. He'll I'd argue that if would have made the initial support for the war in the US less than it was when Iraq was presented as a threat.

quote: Look around.

I have and I see a greatly weakened US position in dealing with Iran and the DPRK. Military recruitment is down. Resources have been taken from Afghanistan and the hunt for al-Qaeda. Political and military capital has been needlessly squandered on an enterprise where the costs are extremely high and the benefits are far from certain.

	09-04-2005 22:34									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Exactly. This isn't something inconsequential. Germany has come to terms with its sordid past during WW2 a while back. Japan has never done so and treats some of the people involved in the atrocities (most of whom are dead) as war heros.

It's always been like this, from Alexander the Great to Kissinger.

	09-04-2005 22:37									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger This is not propaganda, because the Japanese government has been revising HS textbooks and refusing to apologise for their atocities. Japanese courts refuse to sentence Japanese companies that enslaved people from other counties as workers. The rightwinger in Diet still worships war criminals every year.

Says the man who thinks Taiwan is Chinese, approves of Tiananmen, etc.

	09-04-2005 22:37									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ah, idealistic idiots who want to talk about 'right' and 'wrong' even though their connection to reality is tenuous at best.

It's idealistic to expect govts to be accountable for their human rights violations instead of creating diversions? Wow! You are really something Imran.

	09-04-2005 22:42									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, because there is a way to do neo-conservatism practically, even though it is an idealistic ethos. You target the proper states to get a domino effect. It seems Iraq was pretty good for that... only except that we lied about why we went there and then strung up Iraqis and took pictures, and then sent too few troops. Practical neo-conservatism is possible. Bush, however, doesn't realize that.

Basically anything to help a state (no matter how ****ed up the state is) remain and increase it's power is thumbs up to you because that's practical. Eating babies is practical I guess since you can get the necessary calories you need. My God Imran, have you no shame or sense of decency at all?

	09-04-2005 22:47									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger This is not propaganda, because the Japanese government has been revising HS textbooks and refusing to apologise for their atocities. Japanese courts refuse to sentence Japanese companies that enslaved people from other counties as workers. The rightwinger in Diet still worships war criminals every year.

Why do people think that propaganda has to be false information? Whether or not something is propaganda has to do with the purposes of spreading the information, not whether it is true or false.

	09-04-2005 22:50									#58
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Imran, I take it that you're one of those who think that the Arab dictators fear America more now that its budget has been bled dry and its forces overstretched?

	10-04-2005 22:32									#59
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Sadly, racism seems to be becoming increasingly fashionable of late in China.

Today there was a large-scale anti-Japanese protest in Beijing which was broken up by riot police (no tanks, this time - it was a gov't-approved protest).

Several other cities (Chongqing, Shenzhen) have had violent protests recently which, like today's in Beijing, involved attacks on Japanese businesses.

There is an anti-Japanese on-line petition making the rounds in China, now boasting between twenty and thirty gajillion signatures urging the gov't to take sterner measures against Japan.

Even normal, middle-class white collars in Shanghai are now getting excited about boycotting Japanese goods.

This is a worrisome intersection of nationalism and racism. Few Chinese have ever met a Japanese, yet many (and increasingly more) will openly and unabashedly declare that they hate the Japanese. Not object to their history books, but HATE all Japanese people.

Beijing has in the past fanned the anti-Japanese hysteria, but is now showing some signs of concern over their Frankenstien's monster. A massive on-line petition and riots against Japan are one thing, but what happens the next time another "BMW Killer" story excites the Chinese SMS network?

It's ironic that when westerners bring up human rights/Tibet/Taiwan/etc, one of the most common Chinese arguments is: "that is an internal Chinese affair, foreigners should butt out!" Yet it seems this does not apply to internal Japanese decisions about textbooks.

	10-04-2005 23:01									#60
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maybe they think that Japanese schoolbooks are also an internal Chinese affair.