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DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 15:39
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Japan's obvious response:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/11/i...a/11japan.html?

quote:

Tokyo Protests Anti-Japan Rallies in China

TOKYO, April 10 - Japan lodged a formal protest against China on Sunday after violent anti-Japanese demonstrations in Beijing, even as marches in front of Japanese government offices and businesses widened to southern China.

The Japanese foreign minister, Nobutaka Machimura, summoned the Chinese ambassador, Wang Yi, here on Sunday morning. Afterward, Mr. Wang said the Chinese government condemned the demonstrations on Saturday in which protesters threw rocks at the Japanese Embassy in Beijing and vandalized Japanese businesses.

"We formally demanded China's apology and compensation," Mr. Machimura said after the meeting, adding that Mr. Wang had not apologized.

As the two men talked, however, thousands of Chinese demonstrators reportedly marched on the Japanese Consulate in Guangzhou and staged anti-Japanese demonstrations in Shenzhen, both in southern China. The ptotests over the weekend were described by the news media here as the biggest anti-Japanese protests in China since diplomatic relations between the countries were normalized in 1972.

The marches have set off a steep decline in the already troubled diplomatic relations between Asia's big powers and threatened to harm their important economic relationship. Japan has recently adopted a more assertive foreign policy, and its relations with South Korea have deteriorated as well, so the dispute with China could leave Japan isolated in Asia.

Its simultaneous disputes with China and South Korea, two countries invaded and occupied by Japan, have been rooted in differences over the past, including the approval last week of Japanese junior high school textbooks that critics in and outside Japan say whitewash Japanese militarism. But the fight over the past has also crystallized into a fight over the future, as South Korea and China have each moved to oppose Japan's effort to win a permanent seat on an expanded United Nations Security Council.

South Korea's ambassador to the United Nations, Kim Sam Hoon, recently said that "a country that does not have the trust of its neighboring countries because of its lack of reflection on the past" could not play the "role of a world leader." In China, the marchers were protesting Japan's effort to gain a Security Council seat as well as the textbooks.

The Ministry of Education's approval of textbooks that contain significant revisions of painful historical events is one of a number of signs of a rightward shift here.

The textbooks, for example, play down the issue of the so-called wartime comfort women, Asian women forced by the Japanese military to work as sex slaves, as well as the issue of Asians brought to Japan to be forced laborers.

The new textbooks avoid mentioning any figures about the Nanking massacre in China, in which 100,000 to 300,000 Chinese were killed by Japanese soldiers.

South Korea was particularly incensed that the textbooks categorically stated that islets claimed by both countries, called Takeshima here and Tokdo in South Korea, belonged to Japan and were illegally occupied by South Korea.

In another point of contention, China has demanded that Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi of Japan stop visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, where war criminals are enshrined.

China also condemned Japan for recently pledging to join the United States in defending Taiwan against China.

Japanese politicians, however, have dismissed the complaints of China and South Korea, saying they are trying to exploit the past to keep Japan from claiming its rightful place in the world. Shinzo Abe, the acting secretary general of the governing Liberal Democratic Party, said Sunday that anger at social problems in China, including widening income gaps, was really behind the weekend marches.

"Japan is an outlet to vent that anger," Mr. Abe said in an appearance on the "Sunday Project" television program.

"Since the Tiananmen incident, these kinds of demonstrations were severely restricted, but the authorities tolerated these kinds of anti-Japanese gatherings, and the people themselves used these anti-Japanese marches," he said. "Because of the anti-Japanese education there, it's easy to light the fire of these demonstrations and, because of the Internet, it's easy to assemble a lot of people."

China's and South Korea's complaints have only strengthened the hands of conservative politicians like Mr. Abe or Shintaro Ishihara, the governor of Tokyo, who take an unapologetic stance toward Japan's neighbors.

Under Mr. Ishihara, whose views were regarded as extremist only a few years ago but are now mainstream, the Tokyo metropolitan government has for the second year punished teachers who refused to stand and sing "Kimigayo," the national anthem, a symbol of militarism to many inside and outside the country, or refused to force their students to do so. During this spring's graduation ceremonies, 53 such teachers were punished.

In another telling sign of Japan's growing nationalism, Green Day, now celebrated on April 29, will almost certainly be renamed "Showa Day" soon to commemorate the birthday of the late Emperor Hirohito, who led Japan during its conquest of Asia and who is a revered symbol of Japanese rightists.

The previously named Emperor's Day was changed to Green Day in 1989, after Hirohito's death, partly in consideration of Asian sensitivities. Two attempts in the last five years to rename the holiday for Hirohito failed.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 12-04-2005 15:46 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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Japan sees itself as a victim in WWII. The Japanese simply don't believe the war crimes. They believe the trials of war criminals after the war were just part of Japan's humiliation and people bring up these alleged incidents just to rub it in and keep Japan down. They are in deep, deep denial about the whole subject. Its very hard to change that.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 15:57 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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I just looked it up: 148 Koreans were convicted of war crimes after WWII, 23 were hanged.

The highest ranked Korean in the Japanese army was a lieutenant general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Japan...> Imperial_Army

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 18:09
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quote:
The Japanese simply don't believe the war crimes.


I don't know if they don't believe the war crimes, but there is a distressing tendency to believe that many, if not most, of those convicted of war crimes were convicted unfairly. Of course, the fact that some men were convicted unfairly helps convince people of this, but it's still no excuse.

I do agree on the sense of victimhood, for the most part. Seems to be a popular way of framing history in many East Asian countries...

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 20:15 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
My problem is with the Chinese govt using propaganda.


So you think they'll just stop if you express disapproval?

You only disapprove of things if you think things will be more agreeable to you in the future? You don't bother disaproving of things if things are going to stay the same anyway? Don't even bother to answer that one. I already know the answer.

Lancer is offline Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 20:50
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I would like to thank the Japanese for these nice, quiet, peaceful days at asia's American embassys.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:29
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quote:
You don't bother disaproving of things if things are going to stay the same anyway?


What's the point? Except mental masturbation? Now if you could use that information, then it may be worthwile, but saying the Chinese government should stop using propaganda is like saying the Italians should stop having a shitty army. It just ain't going to happen.

Lancer is offline Lancer
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Apr 1999
time: 05:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:33
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"What's the point? Except mental masturbation?"

These very words can be found in the dictionary under 'Apolyton OT'.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:37 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
You don't bother disaproving of things if things are going to stay the same anyway?


What's the point? Except mental masturbation? Now if you could use that information, then it may be worthwile, but saying the Chinese government should stop using propaganda is like saying the Italians should stop having a shitty army. It just ain't going to happen.


You don't have to have a point. You just do it. What's the point in not liking to be kicked in the ass if I'm going to kick you in the ass anyway?

Lancer is offline Lancer
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Apr 1999
time: 05:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:38
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Yes! If you're going to get kicked in the ass anyway you should like it!

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Mar 2003
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  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:39 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancer
Yes! If you're going to get kicked in the ass anyway you should like it!


How very practical.

Lancer is offline Lancer
Emperor
Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:43
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thank you.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:45 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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If I didn't know better I'd say Imran was a victim of Stockholm Syndrom.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
You don't have to have a point. You just do it. What's the point in not liking to be kicked in the ass if I'm going to kick you in the ass anyway?


I do it for what reason? So that I can have the satisfaction of hearing my own words? At some point you realize that it just doesn't matter and it's just a waste of time. They use propaganda, how does it directly affect you?

After all, your analogy fails. It's more apt to say "What's the point in not liking SOMEONE ELSE to be kicked in the ass, if you are going to kick them in the ass anyway". If it dealt with me, my words may actually mean something. As an outsider, with no political power, they mean jack.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 21:58 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I do it for what reason?

Because it's immoral. Because I take offense to it.
quote:

After all, your analogy fails. It's more apt to say "What's the point in not liking SOMEONE ELSE to be kicked in the ass, if you are going to kick them in the ass anyway". If it dealt with me, my words may actually mean something. As an outsider, with no political power, they mean jack.


If you don't find it immoral, then you just don't. That doesn't mean it isn't.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 12-04-2005 22:16
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quote:
Because it's immoral. Because I take offense to it.


Good for you.

quote:
If you don't find it immoral, then you just don't. That doesn't mean it isn't.


It isn't for me.

Your personal experiences with morality may differ. I just don't see why you have to push your morality on me. If I don't see it as immoral, why am I pushed to say that it must be immoral. You're as bad as the right to lifers .

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 01:57 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Your personal experiences with morality may differ. I just don't see why you have to push your morality on me. If I don't see it as immoral, why am I pushed to say that it must be immoral. You're as bad as the right to lifers .


Because you support the actions of oppressive govts.

mindseye is offline mindseye
King
A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 02:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger

I didn't any of that in the coverage for the Beijing, Guangzhou and Shenzhen protests. The banners had slogans such as "Boycott Japanese goods," "Down with Little Japan," etc. I even saw protestors tangled with reporters using Japanese equipment.

But there wasn't any "I hate all Japanese."


I frequently hear these very words used. And that's in Shanghai. Trust me, it is a common sentiment across the mainland.

Didn't you hear what happened a few months back when the Japanese football team beat China's? Fans loudly cursing the Japanese team, the team's bus assailed, mobs blocking the streets -- it was real ugly.

There is no shortage of mainlanders who have made a kind of personal crusade of anti-Japanese racism, spending their free time creating internet hate-sites and the like. Of course, these are people far too young to have been alive at that time.

He11, I even saw some this stuff in San Francisco's Chinatown!

mindseye is offline mindseye
King
A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 04:04
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Found some photos of Beijing protesters' banners that give a better indication of the mood of the crowd. For non-Chinese readers, the characters say "Japan". The sword hovering over the skull needs no translation.

Attachment: anti-jap1.jpg
This has been downloaded 36 time(s).

Last edited by mindseye on 13-04-2005 at 04:25

mindseye is offline mindseye
King
A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 04:15
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Tired of ads?

In the corner of the sign is a picture of Japanese PM Koizumi, the Chinese reads "Die, (expletive)", the expletive having a meaning something like "f*cker" or "b*stard".

Attachment: anti_jap2.jpg
This has been downloaded 33 time(s).

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 04:20 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Suffering from ads?

I see a lot of women in those pictures.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 05:06
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quote:
For non-Chinese readers, the characters say "Japan".


I can't read Chinese and I understood it...

Ned is offline Ned
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Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by DaShi


Really? There hasn't been a single birth in Japan for fifty years. That's amazing!


DaShi, you know what I mean. I mean that virtually every Japanese soldier in China took part in the abuse of Chinese. This was not just some ugly SS organization that did it, while the Army was clean.

Ned is offline Ned
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  Old Post 13-04-2005 06:19
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While it hasn't been discussed here, but just how did Japan kill 30 million Chinese? I am aware of what happened in Nanking. But that was only around 250,000. Such massacres had to be happening regularly in order for the total to reach the claimed number. But all I have ever heard of is Nanking.

Also, why in the world would Japan force ordinary women into brothels against their will. Throughout history, willing prostitutes have followed conquering armies whereever they went.

Bosh is offline Bosh
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Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 06:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancer
I would like to thank the Japanese for these nice, quiet, peaceful days at asia's American embassys.


Yeah, exactly. Some "OMG them dirty foreign teachers iz havin sex wit uz wimmen!" protests were brewing but all the anti-Japanese stuff really headed that off. I'm so thankful

The Koreans can only seem to be outraged at one thing at a time But in their defense, the Japanese haven't done anywhere NEAR as good of a job as Germany of owning up to what they did wrong.

Bosh is offline Bosh
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Taehan Mingook
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
While it hasn't been discussed here, but just how did Japan kill 30 million Chinese? I am aware of what happened in Nanking. But that was only around 250,000. Such massacres had to be happening regularly in order for the total to reach the claimed number. But all I have ever heard of is Nanking.

Also, why in the world would Japan force ordinary women into brothels against their will. Throughout history, willing prostitutes have followed conquering armies whereever they went.


Naking was just the big one, Japan did all sorts of things like that on smaller scale, especially during very brutal guerilla-suppression operations. If that 30 million includes people dying of starvation that was a result of Japanese actions, it is very believable.

As far as the prostitutes, not too many people would've worked willingly with the volume that the Japanese army gave its "comfort women" it was in and out every few minutes all day long. They could have a hundred men a day easily, which is a bit much...

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 07:05
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quote:
Because you support the actions of oppressive govts.


And when what they do is pointing out the valid abuses of other governments, something which is RIGHT, you should too .

Do you think the people of China will learn more of human rights when the Chinese government blames others of human rights abuses or when the Chinese government says nothing on human rights (while, of course, preventing anyone else's criticism to not be allowed in)?

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

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May 1999
time: 13:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
What offical apologies? There has been none, zilch, nada.


Wrong again, as usual...


Foot in the mouth, again.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 07:19
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Why don't you read the opening post, you moron? Do you think the Economist is lying?

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
time: 13:35
  Old Post 13-04-2005 07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by mindseye
Found some photos of Beijing protesters' banners that give a better indication of the mood of the crowd. For non-Chinese readers, the characters say "Japan". The sword hovering over the skull needs no translation.


I need to see the entire banner to be sure, because it can go one of the two ways, one of them a reminder of Japanese atrocities in China in WWII.

 
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