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Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 15:36
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quote:
it also removes a religion-based holiday.


Wow. You hate religion even more then you love being lazy.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 15:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Anybody notice this double standard?

US government does something bad: EVIL EVIL AMERICA!

Foreign Government does something bad: Ha, you Americans can do nothing about it! Stop Whining, they are only looking after their own interests!

France in a Democratic nation from the West and is our ally, and shouldn't be making such an irresponsible action.




Edit: Xpost

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 17:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

Depends.

Would you seriously fight against China over Taiwan, if China had modern weaponry?

If yes, then indeed, the military alliance has become completely meaningless.
If no, thenthe current French behaviour doesn't change a thing.


No.

Would we fight against Nazi Germany if they had had nukes that could hit the US? Probably not. It would still make whoever gave them those nukes our enemy.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Don't worry, they're only blinded by the nationality.

If Bush had done exactly the same (but sold Boeings instead of Airbuses), quite a few people in this thread would sing a radically different tune.


No.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Would we fight against Nazi Germany if they had had nukes that could hit the US? Probably not. It would still make whoever gave them those nukes our enemy.

Sweden provided tons of iron to nazi Germany, and Switzerland tons of money. I'm not aware that you were at war against Sweden and Switzerland

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Don't worry, they're only blinded by the nationality.

If Bush had done exactly the same (but sold Boeings instead of Airbuses), quite a few people in this thread would sing a radically different tune.
I'm curious what makes you think anyone other than Agathon (Who is a reflexive Anti-American troll) would take a different position.
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
If no, thenthe current French behaviour doesn't change a thing.
What Kuci said.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 17:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
No.

Yes.

The intelligent right wingers wouldn't have posted in this thread, or only to threadjack.

The usual Repug ringleaders would have supported the move, because they'd have swallowed the usual anti-terrorist rhetorics that always comes with cynical US foreign policy moves. That, and anything that pisses off the liberals must be a good thing.

The usual suspects on the left would have been much more vociferous.

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
King
AUERSTADT
Jun 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 17:48
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Spiffor,

In fact, all companies, since July 2004, pay an additional 0.3% social charge supposed to finance the elderly. Consequently the work on the Pentecote monday is pure propaganda.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 17:49
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Spiff: I think you're only trying to make yourself feel better now.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 17:51
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'm curious what makes you think anyone other than Agathon (Who is a reflexive Anti-American troll) would take a different position.

The way your foreign politics work is that the US MUST always do the "right" thing, whereas most French people (as well as the media) don't judge foreign policy: actually, I have found nearly nothing on this on the French press.

As such, if the US had done something cynical just like we did (like, say, reaffirming friendship and weapon sales toward a military dictatorship that could go Muslim fundy at any moment ), the diplomats would have enrobed it in a sweet antiterrorist rhetorics.

Most intelligent right-wingers would develop no opinion on the matter. Most hardcore Repug yesmen would have swallowed the rhetorics hook, line and sinker, and they'd defend it against the liberal whiners.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 17:53
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quote:
Originally posted by DAVOUT
In fact, all companies, since July 2004, pay an additional 0.3% social charge supposed to finance the elderly. Consequently the work on the Pentecote monday is pure propaganda.

I'm torn between the disgust I have for this government, and the satisfaction of feeling that my feeling has been right all along (that they're scumbags)

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 17:57
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Spiff: I think you're only trying to make yourself feel better now.

Nope.

I am probably the one who voiced the highest opposition to Raffarin's move in this thread. So I don't exactly feel guilt upon having double standards.

Besides, I have too often seen right-wingers here justify despicable and utterly cynical acts of the Bush admin, and I feel confident when I think there is an audience for his propaganda.

Finally, considering that many leftwingers would be frothing at the mouth if the US were the cynical ones here, the reasonable right wingers wouldn't want to join the charge, and they would be inclined to lean toward the side that pisses the liberals off. Ye olde forum polarization.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
Question  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Most intelligent right-wingers would develop no opinion on the matter.
Again you say that in your hyothetical most intelligent right wingers would have no opinion about selling modern weaponry to a rival who has held our soldiers hostage in the past, threatening neighbors, and doing nothing to help in the DPRK situation simply to quell a rebellion in Xinjiang? I'm still curious what you base this on.

Patroklos is offline Patroklos
Warlord
Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:02
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quote:
"strategic partnership" between the EU and China


I was pretty sure that the EU was a strategic partner with someone else, especailly considering that formal military alliance that formally ties 90% of that power with them.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:02
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Again you say that in your hyothetical most intelligent right wingers would support selling modern weaponry to a rival who has held our soldiers hostage in the past, threatening neighbors, and doing nothing to help in the DPRK situation simply to quell a rebellion in Xinjiang? I'm still curious what you base this on.

Willingness to hope that the move isn't entirely cynical. Edit: this line doesn't apply to you
Forum dynamics.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:04
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The earlier thread I started on this subject seems less like a troll now.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:11
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http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...highlight=china

For reference.

There's still a long way to go in this thread

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:24
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I don't understand opposition to holidays. Heck, I'd support a Karl Marx day if it meant another day off.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:30
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quote:
France ... is our ally


Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
I don't understand opposition to holidays. Heck, I'd support a Karl Marx day if it meant another day off.

I'm not opposed to the holiday per se, but I'd have been favourable to the idea as it was propagandized (i.e. one extra day of work, where all of the money made gets to the elderly). And if we are to lose a holiday, I prefer it to be a religious than a secular one.

Shi Huangdi is offline Shi Huangdi
Emperor
Pittsburgh, PA
Apr 1999
time: 00:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor

I'm not opposed to the holiday per se, but I'd have been favourable to the idea as it was propagandized (i.e. one extra day of work, where all of the money made gets to the elderly). And if we are to lose a holiday, I prefer it to be a religious than a secular one.


If they need more money to fund social services, raise taxes, don't take away holidays.

I think the question here is, with Spiffor so much in favor of working instead of leisure, could be that he is in fact a dirty "Rosbif" Anglo after all?

DAVOUT is offline DAVOUT
King
AUERSTADT
Jun 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 18:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi


I think the question here is, with Spiffor so much in favor of working instead of leisure, could be that he is in fact a dirty "Rosbif" Anglo after all?


No, Spiffor is a very special commie of the Gallic family.

Lancer is offline Lancer
Emperor
Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 20:19
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Next time the Germans have a go at France...

Admiral is offline Admiral
Warlord
of the peace and coexistance movement
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 20:24
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People thinking that pre-cold war systems apply...

child of Thor is offline child of Thor
Emperor
UK
Jan 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 20:34
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i reckon Chiraq just woke up all pissed off.
probably with a hangover; pushed away the 'company' he collected from the roadside last night, and read a headline in a newspaper about Bush + the Pope, or something like that. And he just snapped.
"Sac're bluer, zis bush is a madmon - i vil show im oo is da bos"
Then sold taiwan to china.
He probably feels bad about it now, after the hang over wore off.
But the french are passionate people, his heart took over from his head in his bush-hate momment imho.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 20:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
I think the question here is, with Spiffor so much in favor of working instead of leisure, could be that he is in fact a dirty "Rosbif" Anglo after all?

Nah, we have our specificities (and as my presence here attests, I have huge leisure time ). In particular, May has so many holidays that there's nearly one workweek less during that month. It's fairly absurd, especially when you know that the whole of autumn has very few holidays here.

And I'm all for an extra effort for our elderly, if it means that their way of life is imporved (the scumbags of the government didn't take their propaganda seriously however, and this new day is more in the service of the shareholders than of the elderly )

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 21:03
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The US will not extend a nuclear guarantee to Taiwan, so NYE's assertions in my opinion are useless. No US president will risk the west coast for Taipei.

As for the French, its obivously an opportunistic approach to foreign policy, but then, what can you expect from a right-wing government?

Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 22-04-2005 23:45
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Why aren't Russia and Israel coming in for stronger criticism than the French?

Dracon II is offline Dracon II
King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
  Old Post 23-04-2005 08:31
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A nation-state acting in its own self interest?

The US only supports Taiwan because it sees China's growing influence in the region as possibly supplanting its own. The USA has for a long time tried to foster a divided Asia tied to the US bilaterally and, if unavoidable, multilaterally. It was with this in mind that they rejected Mahatir's proposal for an East Asian Economic Caucus (EAEC), preferring instread Australia's idea of APEC. Or when they rejected Japan's proposal for an Asian Monetary Fund (which asia side stepped with the Chiang Mai initiative). The US has recently been heard to grumble over the prospects of this year's East Asian Summit in Kuala Lumpur.... but it is frustrated by its increasing inability to do anything about it. Asia is organising itself multilaterally around China, and is doing this in a way that limits the influence of the US. Of course, the US still has Japan and Australia.... but even Australia is erring on the side of China. Australia refuses to criticize outright the EU's lifting of its arms ban on China, and our foreign minister recently suggested that we would not necessarily take the US's side in a confrontation over Taiwan. So it is not only France that is being friendly to China for personal gain, but also one of the USA's most staunch allies. It highlights just how isolated America is on this issue (with the possible exception of Japan, which currently relies on the US strategically, but on China economically [like Australia I guess] and is thus largely a toothless tiger]).
The difference between France and the US on this issue is largely the difference between national and imperial interest. As a state that is far removed from the Asian strategic situation, France is seeing this purely as a means of making a few euros, whereas the USA has a critical imperial interest in maintaining its strategic presence and influence in the region, and thus is putting purely economic considerations to the side (or perhaps not so if one considers arms sales to Taiwan) in what it considers as a threat to its regional power by an ascending challenger. The threat to Taiwanese democracy is a peripheral consideration at best. Empires have little time for idealism.

Last edited by Dracon II on 23-04-2005 at 08:41

Dracon II is offline Dracon II
King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
  Old Post 23-04-2005 08:34
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Oh and if Americans want any credibility in their accusations of French "short-sighted opportunist" foreign policies... maybe they should reexamine their Government's position on global climate change and Kyoto? (same goes for my Government)...

 
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