03-05-2005 00:44									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It is interesting that Poland changed its viewpoint on the Iraq war in response to the the pope.

At least JPII was consistant (being against abortion AND the Death Penalty AND unjust wars) which is more than you republicans can say.

	03-05-2005 00:59									#152
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Odin, I have always supported the war for any number of reasons. I haven't changed my views at all.

	03-05-2005 03:16									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The Doomsday Clock at 1984. Just FYI.

Oh, I knew about that one even back in the early 80'es, but what I was talking about was what common people thought.

As someone has mentioned, there was protesters against nuclear weapons, peace demonstrations etc. but noone actually took them seriously. First of all, they were few, next, they were only opposing western weapons and last, it was obviosly to everyone that they were financed by soviet.

Funny enough, the protesters was angry about that NATO may deploy atomic wapons, but they totally ignored the fact that USSR already had deployed such thingies.

It gets even funnier when they tried to declare the baltic area (including sea areas) as nuclear free - the only country that has any nuclear weapons in that area was Soviet - just try to imagine that Soviet should remove nuclear weapons that could reach that area !

	03-05-2005 03:24									#154
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BlackCat, when the marchers carry communist flags, they fool very few people who actually see the march. The funny thing is, though, that in all the reporting on these demonstrations, the liberal news media never mentions the flags and that that communists organizations were behind the demonstrations.

Now, why could that be?

I have asked this question now in a few threads, and have received no response. Why were the Western media clamoring for war with Hitler and Japan while ignoring the travesties of Stalin, and even calling his torture and execution paradise some sort of successful experiment in socialism.

Etc., etc., etc.

	03-05-2005 03:42									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Ned BlackCat, when the marchers carry communist flags, they fool very few people who actually see the march. The funny thing is, though, that in all the reporting on these demonstrations, the liberal news media never mentions the flags and that that communists organizations were behind the demonstrations. Now, why could that be? I have asked this question now in a few threads, and have received no response. Why were the Western media clamoring for war with Hitler and Japan while ignoring the travesties of Stalin, and even calling his torture and execution paradise some sort of successful experiment in socialism. Etc., etc., etc.

Well, one of the answers is quite obviously, the nazi regime was a great danger and for once the medias was right in claims that it should be fought against aggressively.

If you seriously ask why anyone should be against the Japanese wars in the east, then you certainly doesn't know what they was doing.

The only small point you has left is that some inetellectual people had an meaningless belief in the soviet regime and still today such persons will still claim that a suppresionist regime (a left - extreme left - of course) is acceptable. Actually, I don't have a reasonable answer to that, and I guess that they doesn't have one themselvf.

	03-05-2005 03:54									#156
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Well, the NYTimes has admitted that it whitewashed Stalin's regime. During the war itself, I can understand why the Allies looked the other way. But the consequences?

As to the Japanese, the way they conducted their war in China lost them all sympathy in most of the world. It is almost amazing that the US did not give Japan an ultimatum in 1937.

Back to Hitler, yeah he screwed himself the way he tore up the Munich agreement and took Czechoslovakia. There is no wonder that noone was willing to negotiate with him from that point on.

Dear Leader now has the same problem.

	03-05-2005 04:08									#157
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What are you talking about ? Really, who cares what NYT may have claimed during wartime ? Should they have clamied that an allied was more dangerous than the current enemy ?

What NYT may have written after the war, that a totally different situation - at that point you could expect them to tell the truth as far as the knew it, and then we are back to my mystery.

You forgot to ask the primary question - what the fck had japan to do in china at all ?

Hitler was screwed seriously from the start - unfortunately he managed to get control over a country that had serious battle capacity.

	03-05-2005 05:13									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Someone should just nuke Poland. ... they've sucked at football.

I didn't know Poland even had a football team. Is that the Euro league?

	03-05-2005 05:17									#159
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The World Cup.

Damn. I was hoping some Pole would bite, or at least would want to reminisce about Lato.

	03-05-2005 05:20									#160
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Kid, football is what the quaint foreigners call that boring game known as soccer. They hope by naming it after our exciting game of football that it will make soccer somehow more interesting and watchable.

	03-05-2005 05:22									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Ned BlackCat, when the marchers carry communist flags, they fool very few people who actually see the march. The funny thing is, though, that in all the reporting on these demonstrations, the liberal news media never mentions the flags and that that communists organizations were behind the demonstrations. Now, why could that be?

Because it had nothing to do with the Soviet Union? Because the media didn't want people to see peacefull communists?

	03-05-2005 05:24									#162
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Oh dear. I've ruined a decent troll.

	03-05-2005 05:25									#163
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kid, football is what the quaint foreigners call that boring game known as soccer. They hope by naming it after our exciting game of football that it will make soccer somehow more interesting and watchable.

Nationalist pig!

	03-05-2005 05:26									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The World Cup. Damn. I was hoping some Pole would bite, or at least would want to reminisce about Lato.

Does Heresson even follow soccer?

	03-05-2005 05:27									#165
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quote: Does Heresson even follow soccer?

I don't know. Does the Church permit it?

	03-05-2005 05:28									#166
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Sure it does... ole' Karol used to be a goalkeeper in Poland and loved the game .

	03-05-2005 05:29									#167
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but not if the match is on a Sunday

	03-05-2005 05:30									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Nationalist pig!

I can't help it if we're better than them.

	03-05-2005 05:31									#169
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quote: Sure it does... ole' Karol used to be a goalkeeper in Poland and loved the game .

So he wasn't all bad. I wonder if he participated in hooliganism.

And DeMarcus is a cool name. I reckon that you should change your name to DeMarcus Siddiqui – chicks will love it.

	03-05-2005 06:26									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Sure it does... ole' Karol used to be a goalkeeper in Poland and loved the game . So he wasn't all bad. I wonder if he participated in hooliganism. And DeMarcus is a cool name. I reckon that you should change your name to DeMarcus Siddiqui – chicks will love it.

.... or not .

And I thought all these wierd African-American names were something to be made fun of, not encouraged .

	03-05-2005 06:28									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And I thought all these wierd African-American names were something to be made fun of, not encouraged .

This? From someone named Imran?

	03-05-2005 06:28									#172
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About Pope John Paul II:

http://www.soccerhall.org/news/2005...ulII_462005.htm

quote: Pope John Paul II, who died on Saturday, scheduled his coronation in 1978 so as not to conflict with a televised soccer game. Born Karol Wojtyla, he was known as "Lolek the Goalie," in his hometown of Wadowice, Poland, where he played for the local soccer team. As a boy, according to childhood friend Jerzy Kluger, Wojtyla played in pickup soccer games that pitted Jewish boys against Catholic boys, and Wojtyla would volunteer to play with the Jewish boys to create even numbers. "There usually was not enough Jews, so somebody had to play on the Jewish team and he was always sort of ready, you know," Kluger said in a 2003 interview. Pope John Paul II was also an honorary member several soccer clubs, including Barcelona and Schalke 04, and frequently hosted soccer teams at the Vatican. In "The Simplest Game" by Paul Gardner, Coach Bora Milutinovic described the Mexican national team's audience with John Paul II in 1984 before a friendly against Italy: "He gave us a blessing. He held up one hand. Five fingers. The next day the Italians scored five goals against us. We were just happy he didn't bless us with both hands."

	03-05-2005 06:30									#173
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat What are you talking about ? Really, who cares what NYT may have claimed during wartime ? Should they have clamied that an allied was more dangerous than the current enemy ? What NYT may have written after the war, that a totally different situation - at that point you could expect them to tell the truth as far as the knew it, and then we are back to my mystery. You forgot to ask the primary question - what the fck had japan to do in china at all ? Hitler was screwed seriously from the start - unfortunately he managed to get control over a country that had serious battle capacity.

Well, they took over a large province and commercial rights to Manchuria from the Germans in 1919 in the Versailles Treaty, you know the one, where Britain and France divided the world? The reaction in China was a popular revolt, that brought both Communism and democracy to an ancient empire.

I assume Japan, which supported Britain in the war, wanted the spoils for obvious reasons. What the did not count on, I suspect, was that they in effect were buying a war that would end up destroying their country.

	03-05-2005 06:35									#174
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As to the NYTimes, it greatly influenced American public opinion on Stalin prior to the war. While much of Europe was hostile to Stalin, we were the first country to recognize the USSR and began calling Stalin "Uncle Joe." The NYTimes never reported on the harsh conditions in the USSR caused by collectivization, nor the millions killed in the various purges. Instead they reported that Stalin was doing wonders, etc., etc.

In the end, this may have worked to our favor as we were good allies for a time. But we also let Stalin take Eastern Europe, northern China and North Korea as booty. That has lasting effects even to today.

	03-05-2005 07:01									#175
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quote: Originally posted by pchang This? From someone named Imran?

My name is culturally interesting... the wierd African-American names are bastardizations of European names (like 'Marcus').

	03-05-2005 08:40									#176
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat As someone has mentioned, there was protesters against nuclear weapons, peace demonstrations etc. but noone actually took them seriously. First of all, they were few, next, they were only opposing western weapons and last, it was obviosly to everyone that they were financed by soviet.

Dammit, the Soviets never gave me or anyone I knew money for protesting. Dammit, we was robbed.

	03-05-2005 08:45									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why were the Western media clamoring for war with Hitler and Japan while ignoring the travesties of Stalin, and even calling his torture and execution paradise some sort of successful experiment in socialism.

You mean before the war I presume.

Where do you get this idea that the Western media, whatever you mean by that, was clamouring for war with Hitler and Japan while siding with the Soviets?

	03-05-2005 08:47									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, the NYTimes has admitted that it whitewashed Stalin's regime.

The great thing about the NYT is that it admits its mistakes, but I don't recall them claiming they whitewashed Stalin's regime. Details please.

	03-05-2005 11:26									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai You mean before the war I presume. Where do you get this idea that the Western media, whatever you mean by that, was clamouring for war with Hitler and Japan while siding with the Soviets?

It actually was in that article written by the German diplomat Braun I quoted in another thread. But as to the NYTimes, they have raised the issue themselves, and apologized for their bad coverage of the USSR.

(Yes, this is the 1930's.)

	03-05-2005 14:28									#180
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I don't think the NYT has claimed it whitewashed Soviet crimes.

The suggestion that "western media" were pro-Soviet and anti-German is wrong. The Hearst newspapers were strongly anti-Soviet and pro-Nazi. Most other newspapers in the US and Canada were rightist, not socialist.