16-06-2005 05:18									#121
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I fell asleep last night without actually playing the turn.

But anyway, from the various chats I've had with Paddy and McMeadows, it seems there has been an alliance to get rid of us for some time, simply because they feel our team is too good and because we have Immortals.

Bit of a pity really since I was enjoying this game, but let's battle on and see what we can salvage.....or at least, who we can take down with us

	16-06-2005 05:27									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Moonbars if they attack with horses, we'll not have walls. However a fortified spear has a good chance of blooding them. If we rush, they'll destory sidon when they take it. Hence they have gained nothing. However, they will have moved their stack onto open ground in range of our immortals

Once Sidon is razed, the road underneath it will be automatically destroyed. Hence, their stack will not be in range of our Immortals until they move it onto the rubble that used to be the city centre.

That in itself is not a bad thing. I suggest we have our Immortals gather in Antioch for a stand there. Our empire is much more defensible from there anyway. We should probably build Walls too.

I am still inclined to move 2 Immortals from the mountain outside Invictus towards Antioch. The remainder of the stack will still be strong enough to withstand attack.

	16-06-2005 06:03									#123
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Just had a long conversation with Paddy.

Apparently the Horde are split over whether to attack us or withdraw. A number of them were excited by the idea of getting Currency and Republic from us, particularly with the guarantee that we won't attack them in the future.

Unfortunately Paddy was also looking for more....as in, gifting a city and some gold in tribute. I told him in no uncertain terms that the Council of the Desolation Row would probably have me hung drawn and quartered at the mere suggestion of giving away a town!

Still, there does seem to be a chance that they wil either withdraw their forces, or at least not attack this turn pending a clear majority vote.....ah, the joys of a big team!

On the other hand, with so many active members under a democratic system, there is clearly no assurance that whatever agreement is made will be adhered to on their side.

	16-06-2005 06:08									#124
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Their indecision is in our favour but I suppose it depends on the mood of the person playing the turn. We cannot give away any towns to them.

	16-06-2005 06:31									#125
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I wish to open a new thread in the public forum to send a message to all other teams. My proposed wording is as follows:

Dogpile on the Desolation Row?

There is mounting evidence of an organised alliance to eliminate the Desolation Row from this world.

If this is indeed the case, then ultimately we have no chance of survival, which is of course a sad thing for us.

Our preference of course is to be left in peace, as we have left all other nations in peace thus far. Unfortunately we cannot say whether there is any chance of negotiatiing a peace with the threatened aggressors.

What we can say however, is that the Desolation Row has developed a military that is on par with the world's best, is capable of inflicting severe damage on any other army in the world, and that the first army to attack us in force will feel the wrath of a nation that has nothing to lose and so will fight with ferocity until the last man is dead.

This is not a threat or a warning, neither is it tainted with arrogance. This is merely a statement that if we must go down, we will go down fighting and we shall severely hurt somebody in the process.

If we cannot have peace in our world, then let the show begin


Perhaps after considering the possible benefits and/or ill effects of such a sttement, we can decide whether this is worthwile. I feel that it may buy us some valuable time and make each individual team feel unsure about being the first to attack.

	16-06-2005 08:48									#126
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The last statement might be taken as aggressive. Especially with the evil smiley.
Seriously, I can't imagine anyone examining their conscience and backing down when it's two or possibly three against one.
I say we just fight as well as we can.

	16-06-2005 09:36									#127
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I agree with you - it won't change anything if there are several civs out to get us. But as I said, it may make each civ cautious about being the first to attack, which may buy us a couple of turns.

	16-06-2005 12:26									#128
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Will you PLEASE stop talking About "taking people with us" the situation is NOT that bad, we have not even lost a single immortal!

	16-06-2005 12:43									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Moonbars Will you PLEASE stop talking About "taking people with us" the situation is NOT that bad, we have not even lost a single immortal!

Now now, keep your shirt on! Of course we have a long way to go still. However, I think we would be foolish to just cut off communications with the world and throw our Immortals blindly at whoever approaches.

We need to put a consistent cogent message out there for anyone who cares to listen, and that message should be designed to sow seeds of doubt into the minds of our enemies while also buying us time.

Now I've made a number of suggestions, ranging from negotiating tribute/techs etc, to placing an advertisement in the public forum welcoming the first civ who dares to attack us. We also have a variety of military strategies open to us.

So lads, let's agree on the approach and put it into action.

Plus of course, the trash talk element of it is rather fun

	16-06-2005 19:26									#130
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Bah, I knew this would happen. Sorry, but we're doomed.

	16-06-2005 19:33									#131
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Well if we are doomed, then it's because the other teams are afraid that we are too good

But we have a few tricks up our sleeves still

	16-06-2005 20:39									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Bah, I knew this would happen. Sorry, but we're doomed.

what a big bunch of quitters! I'm so disappointed in you all!

	16-06-2005 21:08									#133
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Don't worry mate....we're a long way from quitting!

The big decisions I feel will come next turn. Let us all put our heads together and win against the odds from sheer strategic and tactical brilliance!

	17-06-2005 04:17									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Once Sidon is razed, the road underneath it will be automatically destroyed. Hence, their stack will not be in range of our Immortals until they move it onto the rubble that used to be the city centre. That in itself is not a bad thing. I suggest we have our Immortals gather in Antioch for a stand there. Our empire is much more defensible from there anyway. We should probably build Walls too. I am still inclined to move 2 Immortals from the mountain outside Invictus towards Antioch. The remainder of the stack will still be strong enough to withstand attack.

you are right of course, there will be no road. What I was meaning was that there will also be no city & no captured walls.

Also consider that they may not attack sidon with their horses, but instead move their stack next to the city, and THEN attack it. if they do that, I'd expect them to move the entire stack into the ruins, expecting any units that used their move attacking, and they would then be sitting ducks.

Gather at antioch.. yes, but to counter-attack, not make a last stand , it is *not* hopeless, and I am ashamed to be on a team with people who give up becuase things dont go according to their plan.

Why don't we pull the stack with the euphoricans out, and station it inside our city? same defensive bonus (I think?) as the mountain, and the euphoricans will be inside our territory, if they enter, and hence unable to heal. We also gain the benefit of them not being able to see what is in our stack, and our units will heal faster inside a city than in open ground (?) we can pound them with the cats I hope we are building by now.

	17-06-2005 04:20									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Don't worry mate....we're a long way from quitting! The big decisions I feel will come next turn. Let us all put our heads together and win against the odds from sheer strategic and tactical brilliance!

What I am saying is that that is not the situation, it will not take a miracle to save us. We have a better stack then the eurphoricans, and we can have a comparable stack versus the horde, all that is at immediate loss is Sidon, and it's a worthless city.

We are about to enter our GA, and should be able to get 2 turn spears and immortals in a lot of our cities, so I am confident we can crush both the stacks we face, and then counter assault the eurphoricans.

	17-06-2005 04:31									#136
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I think we have a good chance of survival if we go on the defensive and stick to our cities. In other games I've played, taking a city seems to be a matter of luck. Sometimes a huge army will destroy itself against the walls of a poorly defended town and other times they just walk on in. Let's hope the numbers generator is on our side when they attack.
I don't think we should counterattack until they are next to our city walls. Otherwise, if one of our units attacks the stack and wins he'll be exposed and we'll have to send other units to defend him on open ground. So let's stay inside our city walls (and build them if we don't have them) and attack when it's favourable.
If they go on a pillaging spree then we'll have to do something different.

	17-06-2005 06:50									#137
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Ok, they have attacked and razed Sidon, as expected. Our campaign has begun!

The Eastern army must remain on the mountain. Defensive bonus there is 100% + 25% = 125%. Inside Invictus (on grasslands) it is only 50% + 25% + 10% = 85%. I have already moved 2 Regular Immortals off the mountain towards Antioch, and the stack on the mountain is still way too strong for Euphorica to attack. This in itelf is good, since it means we only have to deal with the invading Horde in the West.

On the healing, I think units in the open and inside a city heal at the same rate unless there is a Barracks.

I suggest we build a couple of cheap Spears and replace Vet Immortals on the mountain with them.

I am unsure whether we should be building Catapults, or Regular Immortals for the firepower.

Forces gathering in Antioch - I would suggest we allow them to enter our territory before attacking. That way, as Masuro says, our units will stay inside the city even after they attack and will not be sitting ducks. Psychologically this would be superb - the Immortal Ghost Army Overall though, I don't agree we should be predominantly defensive. Our edge is the 4-attack of our Immortals. They can cut through anything this age has to offer, while their Swords and Horemen have a good chance of dying against our Walls even with only 2-defence Spears or Immmortals.

Following on then, I believe Walls in Antioch are essential. A pity, since at 5-pop we're not far away from having auto-walls anyway

Now, on strategy: I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Horde do not press the attack. They may be afraid to come any closer to Antioch now they have destroyed a lightly defended outpost. the question for us then if they don't press further forward, do we go out to meet them and attack?

Last edited by Aqualung71 on 17-06-2005 at 11:57

	17-06-2005 06:56									#138
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If they don't come near us then let's conserve our strength and build up our forces. Every turn they put off attacking hurts them and helps us.

	17-06-2005 06:58									#139
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I've just posted a communication from Ankh-Morpork in the Foreign Correspondence thread. I think we should respond - Foreign Minister, please?

	17-06-2005 11:51									#140
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And by the way Lord Moonbars, you will be dismayed to know that the Spearman we left behind to defend Sidon alone, who was summarily executed and trampled into the dust by a Horde Horseman......was named Tropical Fish

Revenge!!!

	17-06-2005 12:06									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Ok, they have attacked and razed Sidon, as expected. Our campaign has begun! The Eastern army must remain on the mountain. Defensive bonus there is 100% + 25% = 125%. Inside Invictus (on grasslands) it is only 50% + 25% + 10% = 85%.

but there are city walls, right?

quote: I have already moved 2 Regular Immortals off the mountain towards Antioch, and the stack on the mountain is still way too strong for Euphorica to attack. This in itelf is good, since it means we only have to deal with the invading Horde in the West. On the healing, I think units in the open and inside a city heal at the same rate unless there is a Barracks.

Pretty sure units inside a city heal 2 hp a turn rather than one??

quote: I suggest we build a couple of cheap Spears and replace Vet Immortals on the mountain with them. I am unsure whether we should be building Catapults, or Regular Immortals for the firepower.

Def want to build spears quickly here, as this frees up our immortals in the east, and we definetly want more cats in cities with no barracks, for definate. a cat reduces a veteran attackers strength by 25%!

quote: Forces gathering in Antioch - I would suggest we allow them to enter our territory before attacking. That way, as Masuro says, our units will stay inside the city even after they attack and will not be sitting ducks. Psychologically this would be superb - the Immortal Ghost Army Overall though, I don't agree we should be predominantly defensive. Our edge is the 4-attack of our Immortals. They can cut through anything this age has to offer, while their Swords and Horemen have a good chance of dying against our Walls even with only 2-defence Spears or Immmortals.

agree. The immortal is actually a med inf several hundred years early

quote: Now, on strategy: I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Horde do not press the attack. They may be afraid to come any closer to Antioch now they have destroyed a lightly defended outpost. the question for us then if they don't press further forward, do we go out to meet them and attack?

Only if we can field a superior stack, and either destory their stack in one turn before they can retaliate, or sit it on a mountain before attacking.

	17-06-2005 12:09									#142
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The Horde might well wait for the ancient cav to arrive. which buys us a lot of time.

I think we should withdraw the eastern stack into the city (assuming we DO have walls there) and build more cats. the cats greatly increase our defensive ability, and allow us to weaken that stack, and it will not heal, once it's inside our territory.

We could also make a fort on the mountain we are currently sitting on

	17-06-2005 12:20									#143
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we need to defeat one of these attackers quickly. I think forcing the situation in the east is our best bet - inside invictus we have a 10% better defensive bonus than on the mountain (100+25 versus 10+50+50+25) and they don't heal.

Invictus should change from granary to catapult this turn.

	17-06-2005 14:20									#144
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Haven't you got one too many 50's?

50% for the Walls
25% for being fortified
10% for the terrain bonus (grassland).

Total bonus 85%.

On the mountain it's 125%.

In the town - they will win 38.7% of battles
On the mountain - they will only win 29.0% of battles.

This is a big difference. They need to stay on the mountain.


As for the healing, you could be right - I really don't know that one.

	17-06-2005 17:05									#145
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ah.. I think I am getting muddled with my city bonus. U only get a bonus for being inside one of your own settlements once it reaches size 6, right? opps.

I think the fort idea is a good one in that case.. and have I mentioned the CATAPULT idea yet

	17-06-2005 17:48									#146
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A fort sounds good. I can't be much help today as I have a guest (not that I'm much help in any case. )

	17-06-2005 18:03									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Moonbars ah.. I think I am getting muddled with my city bonus. U only get a bonus for being inside one of your own settlements once it reaches size 6, right? opps.

Once a settlement reaches size 7 it automatically gets a 50% defence bonus. This bonus replaces the bonus that the city may get from Walls....ie, it's not cumulative. A size 7 city is the same as a size 1-6 city with Walls.

quote: I think the fort idea is a good one in that case.. and have I mentioned the CATAPULT idea yet

Ah yeh, you've mentioned catapults

	17-06-2005 19:36									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Moonbars what a big bunch of quitters! I'm so disappointed in you all!

2v1 is insta-death. Unless we can get one of the teams to go home we'll be killed. It may take a while, but that result is inevitable. I've played in too many MP DGs to believe anything else is possible. No team, ever, has survived a 2v1 no matter how strong or smart they were. And that's including some really strong and smart ones.

Keep in mind that we can't take too many Immortals away from the east. If we deplete our offensive strength there then they will simly start advancing again. A stack of 10 Spears doesn't help us much then.

I would not build any more Catapults and focus simply on Immortals. We need raw firepower to kill enemy units, not Cats which will plink off HP one by one. We need units dead in droves and Immortals are great for achieving that.

	17-06-2005 20:11									#149
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Well I for one agree with Moonbars. we have a good shot at surviving, and can certainly pack a punch at anyone who moves further into our territory. We will be even more advantaged if we can convince someone like Ankh-Morpork to weigh in on our side

On the other hand, I think building Immortals at 30 shields is better than Cats at 20 shields. Even Regular Immortals stand a better than even chance of killing their units!

	17-06-2005 20:19									#150
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Both teams seem pretty determined to wipe us out. People don't change their minds very easily in games like these. The weight of numbers will eventually drive us down. The Horde will have Ancient Cav coming and the Euphoricans will have Riders. Unless we convince somebody to go home soon we'll be swamped, even if we take down 2 enemy units for every 1 we lose.