17-05-2005 08:29									#1
	If your country were to become communist... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

...and bright young people were to be college educated by the state, should they be allowed to emmigrate so that they might persue carreers under a system that allows them to become wealthy?

If not, should they not be allowed to travel?

	17-05-2005 08:32									#2
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Only the dumb young people would leave a communist society, thereby increasing the average IQ of both communist and non-communist nations.

	17-05-2005 08:33									#3
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not an answer.

	17-05-2005 08:39									#4
	Re: If your country were to become communist... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Lancer ...and bright young people were to be college educated by the state

You don't have to be a communist country to do that. Most European countries work this way.

quote: should they be allowed to emmigrate so that they might persue carreers under a system that allows them to become wealthy?

Yes, but there should be a mechanism that has them pay back their studies.

Brain drain is a minor problem in developed countries, but it's a real killer in developing ones, where gobs of money are wasted on the education of people who'll leave.

	17-05-2005 08:47									#5
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Spif, if they leave, and presumably become citizens of a democracy, how can you force them to pay the communist country back? If it's a communist country the smart over achievers can never own anything because everybody owns everything. So whether it's a developed country or not really doesn't matter. Anyone who believes he can compete will want out in order to succeed in a place where they can enjoy that success. How do you keep them in?

	17-05-2005 08:49									#6
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I think that th commie government would probably feel compelled to nuke my home town, or haul everyone off to a gulag, my hometown being what it is. We make Kansas look like Berkley or San Francisco by comparison.

	17-05-2005 08:57									#7
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Spiffor, I always was a year in the army for free. Is that good enough for letting me study without huge tuition cost? PS. I still buy my own food.

	17-05-2005 09:15									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Only the dumb young people would leave a communist society, thereby increasing the average IQ of both communist and non-communist nations.

Excellent answer comrade

	17-05-2005 09:28									#9
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UR, it may have been witty, but it was no answer.

	17-05-2005 09:38									#10
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Rather than not let people leave, the government should simply encourage people to send back remittances- such programs make up the largest sector of "exports" of many developing nations.

	17-05-2005 09:50									#11
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Millions would die under radically foolish reforms or in forced labor camps under the thumb of a brutal and paranoid dictator. That or the people would go crazy and start killing eachother in some seriously ****ed up ways, while burning art and other national treasures.

	17-05-2005 09:59									#12
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Yes, the Philippines gets something like 40% of its foriegn capital from remitances. However this is a third world country. Is your country third world Smiley?

Could the Soviet Union have survived on remitances if they allowed their best and brightest to leave after educating them?

Remitances aren't a realistic basis for economic survival of a major power. Also, a brain drain to a democracy would not permit a nation already hampered by communism to compete in any manner, including militarily.

	17-05-2005 10:37									#13
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quote: Spif, if they leave, and presumably become citizens of a democracy, how can you force them to pay the communist country back? If it's a communist country the smart over achievers can never own anything because everybody owns everything. So whether it's a developed country or not really doesn't matter. Anyone who believes he can compete will want out in order to succeed in a place where they can enjoy that success. How do you keep them in?

Why is the constant thought that you have to own something to feel really good about something + why do you think that one wouldn't be able to own anything, like a huge house and nice cars, in a socialist economy?

This is just poppy talk. With government corporations instead of pure command economy, both of these goals are very very achievable.


Moral of the story: In ANY country, if you don't do ****, your government won't work, and you'll suffer. With free discussion, you just have a whole lot more of control, and that's why it's so important.

	17-05-2005 10:37									#14
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quote: Brain drain is a minor problem in developed countries, but it's a real killer in developing ones, where gobs of money are wasted on the education of people who'll leave.

he's right. there is no direct corrolation between increased spending in secondary education and in HDI or PPP/capita growth in developing countries.

	17-05-2005 11:12									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Yes, the Philippines gets something like 40% of its foriegn capital from remitances. However this is a third world country. Is your country third world Smiley? Could the Soviet Union have survived on remitances if they allowed their best and brightest to leave after educating them? Remitances aren't a realistic basis for economic survival of a major power. Also, a brain drain to a democracy would not permit a nation already hampered by communism to compete in any manner, including militarily.

Yugoslavia was doing very well by letting its people work abroad and send money back. It was one of the best countries in the communist block too.

	17-05-2005 11:14									#16
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Yugoslavia

	17-05-2005 11:45									#17
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Az, because in communism all property is owned by the state. They decide if you stay in the house they let you use. So what point is there in keeping the place up? It's not yours...Property ownership equals property rights and pride of ownership which equals keeping the place up. That means quality of life.

SirOg, that was because the income was made in capitalist countries. Real money made by citizens trying to better their lives, not stuck under communism in dead end jobs where 'as long as the government pretends to pay us, we'll pretend to work' is the motto.

	17-05-2005 12:10									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Yes, the Philippines gets something like 40% of its foriegn capital from remitances. However this is a third world country. Is your country third world Smiley?

No, and consequentially, there's no brain drain problem.

	17-05-2005 12:51									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Az, because in communism all property is owned by the state. They decide if you stay in the house they let you use. So what point is there in keeping the place up? It's not yours...Property ownership equals property rights and pride of ownership which equals keeping the place up. That means quality of life.

You keep the house up because you have to pay if you don't. I don't see why it should be different in a communist society. And I don't see why you shouldn't be able to own your own residence either.

	17-05-2005 14:01									#20
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Lancer you were asking if the SU could survive on foreign remittances and I gave the Yugoslavia example.

I think however that the way the planned economy worked in our countries it was impossible to have a decent grouth. That is why communist block collapsed.

	17-05-2005 14:03									#21
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And to answer the original question. If they choose to leave the country that educated them they should pay for the education that they received for free.

	17-05-2005 14:40									#22
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according to some people we already are communists...

	17-05-2005 15:36									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer ...and bright young people were to be college educated by the state, should they be allowed to emmigrate so that they might persue carreers under a system that allows them to become wealthy? If not, should they not be allowed to travel?

If they want to leave the country, by all means let them leave! A truly communist society doesn´t infringe on civil rights and such. But as some others have said, they should be forced to pay for the education.

	17-05-2005 15:44									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Az, because in communism all property is owned by the state. They decide if you stay in the house they let you use. So what point is there in keeping the place up? It's not yours...Property ownership equals property rights and pride of ownership which equals keeping the place up. That means quality of life.

Not true, there is nothing in communism that opposes private property. You can own your house, or your car or your summer cottage. After all the wealth is distributed equally, it´s up to you what you do with it.

	17-05-2005 15:47									#25
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Then that's where the whole system falls apart.

	17-05-2005 16:22									#27
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The government should send them letters calling them cowards for abandoning their homeland. That'll work.

	17-05-2005 16:57									#28
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Lancer
Az, because in communism all property is owned by the state. They decide if you stay in the house they let you use. So what point is there in keeping the place up? It's not yours...Property ownership equals property rights and pride of ownership which equals keeping the place up. That means quality of life.
[/q]



of course, it's the "pride of ownership" that keeps the place up. Not the fact that they live in it.

	17-05-2005 17:07									#29
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I see no reason why they shouldnt leave if they want to. You could say it was a waste of state funds to educate them, but that's a risk you have to take....just hope they leave education with enough sense to know staying in a communist state is preferrable to emigrating.

If they are that dissatisfied with the way the country is run they would be better off elsewhere anyway. No way would I imprison people in a country just because it was civilsed enough to provide them with decent free education.

	17-05-2005 17:11									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Spif, if they leave, and presumably become citizens of a democracy, how can you force them to pay the communist country back?

I'll take the example of the über-communistic and despotic French society. I'll take the example of X, young pharmacist who considers going to Britain

X has just finished his learning, which has been paid through and through by the French taxpayer. Since kindergarten, X has probably cost hundreds of thousands of Euros to the French taxpayer. The most expansive part of his scolarization, obviously, was uni, where he learned to become a skilled pharmacist (which doesn't merely mean selling medication, but he also has a top notch background in medical biology).
X wants to go to Britain, because there's more money to be made in Britain. He feels that working in a French hospital wouldn't bring enough money to make justice to his education, and Britain is really an easy destination.
X has no political motivations. He's only mildly interested by French politics, and as a foreign resident he wouldn't even be able to vote in Britain. The political situation in France (personal freedoms etc.) have nothing to do with the reason he leaves.

Tell me why it's ok to let him get away without paying back what he leeched off the taxpayer? If he constributed to French society as a pharamacist, he would do the payback in form of taxes and added growth. In Britain, he won't.