17-05-2005 20:32									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Verres One for yourself and family, one for your mistress and illegitimate children.

	17-05-2005 20:42									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why would you need two houses?

Why would you need computer games? Why would you need entertainment forums? Why would you need theme parks?

A summer house can be something pleasant to have, and I happen to think that a communist society shouldn't be a society made for monks.

	17-05-2005 20:49									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor A summer house can be something pleasant to have, and I happen to think that a communist society shouldn't be a society made for monks.

Why can't you just use one? Why do you have to own it? If you own it other people can't use it.

	17-05-2005 20:54									#64
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But remember, all the intelligent people have left in search of money....the population has significantly decreased so there is a glut of houses.

	17-05-2005 21:00									#65
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Spif says...

"Tell me why it's ok to let him get away without paying back what he leeched off the taxpayer? If he constributed to French society as a pharamacist, he would do the payback in form of taxes and added growth. In Britain, he won't."


che says...

"The U.S. government has a loan program for going to school. You pay it off either with money or by working in an area where you might be needed, like a doctor in Alaska or a teacher in Camden, etc. We don't consider this a problem in the U.S., why should it be a problem in a communist country? Let people work or pay off their debt to society, and then if they wish to leave, let them."

Spif says it more outright, 'Tell me why its ok to let him get away'...

che lets him leave, but only after he 'pays off his debt to society...'.

So, guys, travel restrictions? You don't let them move out of the country, how about travel abroad? Can they take a vacation to a democracy? You know many won't come back...

	18-05-2005 09:37									#66
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bumpt

	18-05-2005 09:47									#67
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I need a vacation. I want to go to PI.

	18-05-2005 09:51									#68
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Communism is the worst form of government ever invented in modern times. I'd have much rather lived in Nazi Germany than under a real communist regime. Consider me one of the first to flee.

Seriously, I'd like to hear the arguments of the pro-Commies on this board on why Communism is precisely better than liberal democracy or even a fascist state.

Even comparing it to fascism it ends up failing: the economy of a fascist state is capitalist though state interventionist (more akin to a modern social democracy on the scandinavian model - a system which is very appealing IMO). In neither of the two there's freedom of speech or press. In either of the two the secret police can nab your ass any day. Collectivized agriculture has proven to be folly so if you're a farmer or peasant, you'll end up screwed under communism. And then of course there's the fact that true egalitarianism is quite idiotic. People deserve to have according to their merits, not according to equal shares of a pie.

I consider myself a leftist, fully in support of social democracy over laissez-faire capitalism. However if I had to choose one of the two extremes, I'd choose the extreme right without question.

Communism

	18-05-2005 10:01									#69
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One thing combines most commies though... none of them have ever lived under communism. Or next to one. Or even CLOSE to one.

One thing more that combines commies. Most often, they think that it wouldn't matter because they know it wasn't the paradise they wanted, and communism in some parts failed in those places. The problem is, "those places" should read "everywhere". We might even draw some conclusions from that. Of course we might make suggestions and a better version, but reasonable people know it'll be a big **** up, like the previous versions. And not being insane, we don't want to repeat the same mistakes, because the bottom line is, people are greedy bastards, communism, any community based ... they just won't work in real life in big scheme. They just won't. As long as there are people like me, communism won't work, and I'm sorry to tell you commies, lots of people are like me. It's actually you who is the minority, and I should say a very small one too.

Here, we can see some problems, that the thread topic addresses. State educates you. You owe something back? What does that mean? It's anti-freedom, it's oppressing. Why? Because, if you want to get educated, you are in a bind situation. You couldn't get out and explore the world, as an individual as you should have the freedom to do. You need to pay back. Exactly how is that OK? The other option is to 'not get educated then'???

I'm sorry, but this sounds so stupid some people should put a gun in their mouths and pull the trigger. Just kidding, but I'll be the one pulling the trigger if someone would force this on everyone else and my kids. '*tears* but it's not oppressive?! Why is free education oppressive?!'.. well, because you don't OWE anythint to the state, period.
To have a scenario where YOU owe the state, a sum that is not known, but you just owe... what the **** is that? I guess you can't leave, since you also need to pay for the healthcare you recieved all your life, or even the opportunity even if you never went, etc etc.

What a ****ing bad idea.

	18-05-2005 10:09									#70
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I know this is not the way communism would work, but many modern commies do follow similar tought process, like Spiffor showed us already few times in this thread.

Now, commies, I have one message to you. Grow up already. This is not the laalaaland. Money talks, and so does freedom.
Just because you think this is OK for everyone doesn't mean it actually is. You know, the underlining problem of everything that is not democracy. I do my own thinking and I know what's best for me so I don't need a commie to tell me that and decide for the rest of us. Thanks.

	18-05-2005 10:36									#71
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I think the problem with most wannabe-commies is that they look too much at the utopian version of it as originaly devised and not as the elitist represive reality that 100% of them ended up being. I agree, all of them would likely change their minds if they actually had to spend a month in a communist country.

I'm not a fan of laissez-faire capitalism but I can easily picture a capitalist utopia. It would be one where there the institutional framework equates private benefit into social benefit thereby no person keeps more for himself than what he can give to society. It would also be coupled with a perfect market state in which the invisible hand ensures that resources are allocated perfectly in the economy. Prices are perfect. No monopolies (other than natural ones) exist since the market ensures that perfect competition exists in every industry. The economy is in a perfect state of equilibrium where any deviation no matter how slight is immediately corrected. Everyone has according to what they work for and deserve. All needs are met by the market and the institutional framework ensures that the market never deviates from its purpose.

Wishful thinking though...

... just like Communism

	18-05-2005 10:51									#72
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Some people just claim to be commies in an attempt to appear intelligent or to justify their own capitalist excess. Or just to stick to the man, which is the only respectable reason.

	18-05-2005 11:32									#73
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The place where I diverge from many socialists is in the role of government. I am a localist, I dislike too much central planning. I think the role of government in my ideal socialist state should be to preserve the co-op form of control in all economic enterprises, and to use tax incentives and monetary policy to encourage or discourage investment when needed (instead of using quotas like in the SU).

	18-05-2005 14:06									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer So, guys, travel restrictions?

No.
1: depends how bad the brain drain affects the country: in the case of France or other EU countries (remember, in today's real world, most countries pay university education with tax money), the brain-exchange goes both ways, so there are few countries that lose a significant amount of brainpower (new EU members may be net losers, and this should be helped).
OTOH, in third world countries where education is a huge expanse relative to the State's budget, and where much of it goes to waste, there should be mechanisms to prevent either the brain-drain, or the loss of money attributed to it.

2: Restrictions to travel aren't the only way to avoid the ill effects of brain-drain. Saying that education is a loan, that you pay while you're working (It's even possible to imagine such system to be egalitarian), will force the expats to pay their debt, even if they're abroad. Just like your debts to private banks follow you when you go to another country.

Edit:

quote: Spif says it more outright, 'Tell me why its ok to let him get away'...

You forgot the most important thing at the end of the sentense: "without paying what his due". If the person pays their due, I have no problem.

	18-05-2005 14:09									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I think the problem with most wannabe-commies is that they look too much at the utopian version of it as originaly devised and not as the elitist represive reality that 100% of them ended up being. I agree, all of them would likely change their minds if they actually had to spend a month in a communist country.

Strange. Az lived in the USSR

	18-05-2005 14:55									#76
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Hmmm, that doesn't sound like a society of this sort would remain communist for long. A one time redistribution and then leaving people alone would just allow those people to turn into filthy capitalists as they begin to buy, sell, and trade property on their own. Ok, lets say everyone has a house, a car and a summer cottage in this communist society. We all own them. Since we own them we are free to sell them, rent them out, fix them up, or do whatever we want with them, right? Do you see how that could lead to amassed capital? Your retort may be that since everyone has a house, car, and summer cottage why would they buy mine? Ah well that assumes perfect equality, and even hardcore Communists must admit that perfect equality is impossible due to limited resources. Lets say this is the United Socialist States of America, USSA, and lets say the best spot to have a summer cottage is Lake Tahoe and Key West. Out of the 300 million people in the country, how many of these good Communists will get a summer cottage on Lake Tahoe or Key West? Very few. So some will be stuck with a summer cottage in New Jersey, or Mississippi, or heck, Kansas. So that creates inequality, and thus a motive to buy/sell/rent/renovate/advance. So the guy with a summer cottage in Key West decides he isn't all that much for vacationing anyhow, so he decides to rent it out by the week to those poor schmucks who were stuck with cottages in New Jersey and Kansas, and eventually gets quite a good amount of money. Buys homes from others, fixes them up, rents them out, etc etc. Capitalism is reborn. So private property is incompatable with true communism. Unless you mean the person "owns" their house, but if they decide to sell it or rent it the transaction has a 90% tax put on it. Well... sure. Even then someone would find a way no doubt. Or if you mean they "own" it but can't buy, sell, rent, or renovate it, well....uh-huh.

Well, I don´t think that this would be a big problem. Ownership in the communist society is a perk, rather than a god given right. You could rent out your summer cottage, but you wouldn´t have anywhere to invest the money since you´re only allowed to own one cottage, car and house at a time. You could buy other stuff with it, like a bigger TV or CD player for your car. Because they are not investments as such.

There will alway be people who try to bend the rules, but as long as the majority is satisfied with things in general this won´t be a great problem. Remember that my communist society is dependent on the will of the people. If there is a communist revolution it´s because an overwhelming majority wants a new society, not because some intellectual avantgarde decides that they know what´s best for every one. Thus the position on private property and acquisition of capital will change fundamentally.

	18-05-2005 14:58									#77
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Until the next generation.

	18-05-2005 15:00									#78
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Both democracy and capitalism are built on competition. The country that competes well in attracting workers with key skills reaps the taxation benefits of those workers, both through personal income tax of the people in question but also through company tax of their employers.

If the government fails to provide an economy where skills are rewarded, then they deserve to miss out on the skills they have given to the population, particularly since they have a distinct advantage over other countries. People are more likely to find a job where they are than in another country.

	18-05-2005 15:01									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer So, guys, travel restrictions? You don't let them move out of the country, how about travel abroad? Can they take a vacation to a democracy? You know many won't come back...

Lancer, you (and everyone else) seem to assume that a communist society can´t be a democratic one? I don´t think that many commie posters here wants a Soviet style dictatorship...

	18-05-2005 15:08									#80
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Until the next generation.

Hopefully, by the next generation every other country is also communist

	18-05-2005 15:10									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns If the government fails to provide an economy where skills are rewarded, then they deserve to miss out on the skills they have given to the population, particularly since they have a distinct advantage over other countries. People are more likely to find a job where they are than in another country.

So, you think it's OK for, say, Morocco to lose its whole intellectual elite because a worker's wage in neighbouring Spain is much hihger than a doctor's wage in Morocco?

	18-05-2005 15:22									#82
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The wage rates of doctors in Morocco will balance out compared to those of Spain due to supply and demand. To say they would lose their "whole intellectual elite" is a strawman as each skilled worker that leaves drives up wages for those that remain, as well as driving down wages in the country they are migrating to. The marginal cost of leaving will continue to increase.

If the number of doctors Morocco needs is too low to make training native Moroccans cost-effective, Morocco can specialise education in some other field, take advantage of some other country's economy of scale and import doctors themselves.

In short, I see no problem in allowing market forces to redistribute (human) resources to where they are most cost-effective.

	18-05-2005 15:29									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns The wage rates of doctors in Morocco will balance out compared to those of Spain due to supply and demand. To say they would lose their "whole intellectual elite" is a strawman as each skilled worker that leaves drives up wages for those that remain, as well as driving down wages in the country they are migrating to. The marginal cost of leaving will continue to increase.

For how long will it last? How much money will the Moroccan people continue to lose in order to train doctors that won't stay at home? Which foreigner will want to exercise in Morocco, considering that very few people can afford the prices a doctor could easily charge in a western country?
It's not only a matter of supply and demand, it's a matter of affording things. No foreigner in their right mind would immigrate in Morocco for economic reasons, because there's no money there. Morocco competes with countries (such as Spain) which are completely out of its league.
Yet, Morocco has the domestic ability to train doctors, teachers etc. Why makes it all right that these domestic forces (which are costly to build up, but importing is much, much more expansive) leave the country without even reimbursing the cost of their education?

quote: If the number of doctors Morocco needs is too low to make training native Moroccans cost-effective

It's not that they don't need doctors (quite the contrary), it's that they can't afford to pay them more. Spain can afford to pay more money for an expandable construction worker.

	18-05-2005 17:46									#84
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An integral part of the definition of "demand" is the ability to back up your want with purchasing power. In other words, demand means affording things. Further, no country has "no money". They can afford a certain amount of doctors per number of population through taxation. Obviously this number will be much lower than a country with a strong economy - such that there will be fewer doctors per person than in Spain. That a country with a weak economy has a lower standard of living should come as a shock to no-one though.

And yes, Spain can afford to pay more at the margain to gain an additional doctor, however there comes a point when the cost of an additional doctor outweighs the additional benefit that doctor brings. Morocco, with its weaker economy, can afford less doctors. With less doctors, the marginal benefit of an additional doctor is much greater than that of Spain. While they can't afford as many doctors as Spain, there is a point where the doctor's pay at market rates equals the benefit Morocco receives from the doctors it does hire.

	18-05-2005 19:39									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns An integral part of the definition of "demand" is the ability to back up your want with purchasing power.

So if you can't afford doctors or food, too bad for you. You have no claims on the people you put through school or whose farms you subsidized. I love who supporters of capitalism like to have it both ways. You can take what you want from the state, but it's such a major imposition if the state wants something back.

	18-05-2005 20:05									#86
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Pekka, Master Zen, I agree that the utopian ideal is far from the end result once the politboro, or whoever, ends up in charge.

DrZ, how can a democratic country not be capitalist? Capitalism IS freedom...

Spif, France is not a communist country. The government hasn't confiscated and redistibuted all property from rightful owners to their cronies...erm, I mean 'the people' yet, have they?

	18-05-2005 20:06									#87
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As opposed to communists, who want everyone to give the state everything.

I don't believe I advocated allowing people to starve.

	18-05-2005 20:07									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Capitalism IS freedom...

That depends on how much money you have.

	18-05-2005 20:08									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I don't believe I advocated allowing people to starve.

Not in those words, but it's the implication from your asserting that if Morocco can't afford to pay the doctors what they would get in Spain, tough luck for Morocco.

	18-05-2005 20:09									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer DrZ, how can a democratic country not be capitalist? Capitalism IS freedom.

The Paris Commune was democratic and communist.

The early USSR was democatic and communist.

Nicaragua was democratic and communist.