17-05-2005 17:11									#31
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Verres: that's only nice on paper. Thing is, that if a country is poorer, whether it's capitalist or communist, educated people will immigrate out of there. You'll have to create some sort of disincentive for them to immigrate.

	17-05-2005 17:17									#32
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True - but one should find an incentive for them to stay, rather than a disincentive to leave.

EDIT: Plus, I'm educated, my country is rich - but in all honesty I would rather live in a poorer country where I agreed with the way it was run. And yes, I am aware the reality of such countries differs from the idealistic view some people have - I still plan on emigrating.

	17-05-2005 17:19									#33
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to bad negative impulses work better then postive ones to stimulate someone

	17-05-2005 17:20									#34
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quote: True - but one should find an incentive for them to stay, rather than a disincentive to leave.

Why the hell not? If we agree that this is a bad thing, we should use both the carrot and the stick.

quote: EDIT: Plus, I'm educated, my country is rich - but in all honesty I would rather live in a poorer country where I agreed with the way it was run. And yes, I am aware the reality of such countries differs from the idealistic view some people have - I still plan on emigrating.

But that's only you. Most people aren't like that.

	17-05-2005 17:25									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Az [QUOTE]Why the hell not? If we agree that this is a bad thing, we should use both the carrot and the stick.

No. The stick may be more 'effective' but only because people have become used to responding only to threats and enforcement, and thats what governments typically use as a result. Repression is wrong. And that's what forcing people to stay in a country would be (in my eyes). Better to take longer to become a prosperous country and have a contented and happy population than be internationally successful yet breed resentment and rebellion.

quote: But that's only you. Most people aren't like that.

Give it time, I'm trying my best

	17-05-2005 17:29									#36
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quote: No. The stick may be more 'effective' but only because people have become used to responding only to threats and enforcement, and thats what governments typically use as a result. Repression is wrong. And that's what forcing people to stay in a country would be (in my eyes). Better to take longer to become a prosperous country and have a contented and happy population than be internationally successful yet breed resentment and rebellion.

Define "repression".

Anyway, We're talking both the carrot and the stick remember?

	17-05-2005 17:38									#37
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I could give the dictionary definition, but I assume thats not what you're asking for. To me, it means an unreasonable restriction of people's freedom, in all senses of the word. What I class as unreasonable may be very different from you, therefore my definition of repression is just as subjective.

I just dont agree with using the stick method at all. I agree a combination is better than force alone, but it is still far from ideal.

	17-05-2005 19:34									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Verres True - but one should find an incentive for them to stay, rather than a disincentive to leave.

That's capitalism

	17-05-2005 19:36									#39
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the incintive to keep people in a communist country is to change to capitalism

	17-05-2005 19:37									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's capitalism

That would be one of the best pro-capitalism arguments made on 'Poly so far.

	17-05-2005 19:43									#41
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Paying people not to do something? That's not communism.

	17-05-2005 19:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Paying people not to do something? That's not communism.

Hint: when they stay at home, they do something. Like, say, the work they're trained to, and for which the society paid gobs of money in the first place.

	17-05-2005 19:47									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Hint: when they stay at home, they do something. Like, say, the work they're trained to, and for which the society paid gobs of money in the first place.

Pay them for their work, not to stay in one place. You start paying people to stay where they are and that comes out of someone elses pocket.

	17-05-2005 19:48									#44
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The U.S. government has a loan program for going to school. You pay it off either with money or by working in an area where you might be needed, like a doctor in Alaska or a teacher in Camden, etc. We don't consider this a problem in the U.S., why should it be a problem in a communist country? Let people work or pay off their debt to society, and then if they wish to leave, let them.

	17-05-2005 19:51									#45
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We got side tracked with the "paying the cost of education" issue. Initially the issue was emigration of the most skilled workers who can earn higher wages in another country.

	17-05-2005 19:52									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Paying people not to do something? That's not communism.

That isn't what I said.

Making a country an appealing place to live in shouldn't involve bribing the inhabitants, and that is never something I would advocate.

	17-05-2005 19:52									#47
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So, let them emigrate and pay remittances, use those remittances to build up the country.

	17-05-2005 19:55									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Verres That isn't what I said. Making a country an appealing place to live in shouldn't involve bribing the inhabitants, and that is never something I would advocate.

Oh ok. But still I see the problem as losing the most talented intelligent people. People who could earn 6 figure incomes. It's pretty hard to keep those people by reducing crime and stuff like that.

	17-05-2005 19:57									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So, let them emigrate and pay remittances, use those remittances to build up the country.

You need skilled people to build up a country, not just money.

	17-05-2005 20:02									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oh ok. But still I see the problem as losing the most talented intelligent people. People who could earn 6 figure incomes. It's pretty hard to keep those people by reducing crime and stuff like that.

I do not believe a communist country would automatically lose the most talented and intelligent. Those chasing money at the expense of everything else may leave, but I doubt they are necessarily the most talented and intelligent. In fact, they may be considered less so on the grounds they are so single minded and care for nothing outside their wages.

I'm not saying the rich are stupid - they *usually* have to have brains to have got into a position of wealth and power. I am just pointing out that earnings do not always reflect intelligence or 'usefulness' to society.

	17-05-2005 20:06									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg Not true, there is nothing in communism that opposes private property. You can own your house, or your car or your summer cottage. After all the wealth is distributed equally, it´s up to you what you do with it.

Hmmm, that doesn't sound like a society of this sort would remain communist for long. A one time redistribution and then leaving people alone would just allow those people to turn into filthy capitalists as they begin to buy, sell, and trade property on their own.

Ok, lets say everyone has a house, a car and a summer cottage in this communist society. We all own them. Since we own them we are free to sell them, rent them out, fix them up, or do whatever we want with them, right? Do you see how that could lead to amassed capital?

Your retort may be that since everyone has a house, car, and summer cottage why would they buy mine? Ah well that assumes perfect equality, and even hardcore Communists must admit that perfect equality is impossible due to limited resources. Lets say this is the United Socialist States of America, USSA, and lets say the best spot to have a summer cottage is Lake Tahoe and Key West. Out of the 300 million people in the country, how many of these good Communists will get a summer cottage on Lake Tahoe or Key West? Very few. So some will be stuck with a summer cottage in New Jersey, or Mississippi, or heck, Kansas.

So that creates inequality, and thus a motive to buy/sell/rent/renovate/advance. So the guy with a summer cottage in Key West decides he isn't all that much for vacationing anyhow, so he decides to rent it out by the week to those poor schmucks who were stuck with cottages in New Jersey and Kansas, and eventually gets quite a good amount of money. Buys homes from others, fixes them up, rents them out, etc etc.

Capitalism is reborn.

So private property is incompatable with true communism. Unless you mean the person "owns" their house, but if they decide to sell it or rent it the transaction has a 90% tax put on it. Well... sure. Even then someone would find a way no doubt. Or if you mean they "own" it but can't buy, sell, rent, or renovate it, well....uh-huh.

	17-05-2005 20:08									#52
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And with the paying the cost of education thing, that's an interesting, but weird idea. The US provides "free" (at taxpayer expense) education K-12th grade, but if someone moves out of their school district, state, or even country no payment is required. Nor is reimbursement required for their use of the police, fire, roads, military, or anything else. I think its a silly idea.

	17-05-2005 20:13									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Verres I do not believe a communist country would automatically lose the most talented and intelligent. Those chasing money at the expense of everything else may leave, but I doubt they are necessarily the most talented and intelligent. In fact, they may be considered less so on the grounds they are so single minded and care for nothing outside their wages. I'm not saying the rich are stupid - they *usually* have to have brains to have got into a position of wealth and power. I am just pointing out that earnings do not always reflect intelligence or 'usefulness' to society.

wages in a free market identify the level of scarcity of that particular skilled worker. I don't want to say that higher paying jobs are more useful to society because it's a matter of having the right amount of trained labor for every field, but you can't go losing people who are talented for particular work that can recieve much higher compensation in other countries when you already have a shortage for that type of skilled worker in your own country.

And talent and desire for wealth are not connected at all.

	17-05-2005 20:19									#54
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Ok, lets say everyone has a house, a car and a summer cottage in this communist society. We all own them. Since we own them we are free to sell them, rent them out, fix them up, or do whatever we want with them, right? Do you see how that could lead to amassed capital?

Who said anything about letting people rent out houses or even owning two?

	17-05-2005 20:20									#55
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Lots of people owned two houses in the SU.

	17-05-2005 20:22									#56
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SU wasn't the model communist society. It was one big **** up if you ask me.

	17-05-2005 20:24									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer ...and bright young people were to be college educated by the state, should they be allowed to emmigrate so that they might persue carreers under a system that allows them to become wealthy? If not, should they not be allowed to travel?

In Denmark the state pays for university edication; including mine. No travelling or emigration restrictions have been put in place...

	17-05-2005 20:25									#58
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What is the problem with owning two houses?

	17-05-2005 20:29									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor What is the problem with owning two houses?

Why would you need two houses?

	17-05-2005 20:31									#60
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One for yourself and family, one for your mistress and illegitimate children.